Jokes aside it’s just Yorick things. The champ has 7 pages of documented bugs that have never been touched. Riot has tried their best to forget him.


They will remember Yorick Mori


(Now the community will be so surprised when we dont remember him teeheehee)




Its AI, vision doesn't exist its more along the fact that the code didn't say the maiden wasn't allowed to acknowledge it.


I mean, that's not true? AI have perception systems.


The point being that ai perception systems are more about telling the AI what they *can't* "see" than telling them what they can.


That's also how player vision works. It's why fog of war hacks are possible.


But fog of war hacks aren't possible, riot only sends your client info on what you can see and have vision of. It's why jungle monsters suddenly popin from time to time since the info of the camp got sent late. Or how Sometimes champs don't instantly appear when you enter a bush or they leave the bush. This is all because riot sends the client only the info it can see not what it can't see. There use Tobe fog of war hacks back in the day but once riot changed to most things being kept server side and only sends that info when needed it was made no longer possible.


When was that changed? There are videos on YouTube with such hacks from only a few months ago. At least in Valorant the position of enemies is fully available to the client, regardless of vision.


Not always true, non-player units can give away champ locations across the map. I've had bugs where Heimet turret will be stuck AAing the enemy permanently and the shots reveal their location. Same thing with tower targeting, Shaco boxes, ranged jungle units, etc. This can persist for the rest of the game, through fog. I've had it win me a ranked game before because the jungler position was permanently known. This same bug has been present for over a decade and still exists to this day. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a more direct way to abuse this.


do you mean in general or do you have a source for riot specific ai can do that?


I just have 15 years of professional experience in Unity & Unreal. I know a thing or two about AI systems.


tbf, frostcattle has no source to back up the claim "Its AI, vision doesn't exist" either


Just pay attention to how jungle monsters work. You can have a red team champion in the pixel brush, and a blue team Ezreal ults Dragon from base, and the Dragon will fly over and attack the champion in the brush.


those are neutral monsters. it has no design bearing on how pets controlled by champions ought to behave. obviously though, it should adhere to its own champions allied vision seems obvious it should be considered a bug that the maiden targeted anything out of vision, so vision systems should absolutely exist for AI


And that's what frostcattle meant by "the code didn't say the maiden wasn't allowed to acknowledge it."


no, i took frostcattle's statement to mean riot doesn't have any built in systems for vision-related class inheritance for their AI and that they would have to manually code into consideration fog of war interactions he has no source for that. that *might* be how it works under the hood, like maybe they manually coded tibbers to perform a check periodically for vision to stop attack commands for champions entering a brush, and likewise they could have forgot to manually code the maiden to perform that check. or, they could have a superclass for all pet AI that automatically performs that behavior and the maiden was bugged out in some other way only programmers at riot would know which is the case, which is my point


well they dont have eyes so.... jokin, so actually noone knows how anything works, not even rito anymore


Not inherently, who knows what Riots implementation of it is actually doing.


> Its AI, vision doesn't exist its more along the fact that the code didn't say the maiden wasn't allowed to acknowledge it. And that the bug. AI SHOULD have vision specially to automatically cover situations like in OP post.


Thats not a bug though. A bug would be if she was coded to ignore it, but was finding it anyway which could still be the case but its way more likely that this edge case wasn't guarded against. tldr just because something is not intended doesn't mean its a bug, its an oversight.


Any time the code doesn't behave as intended, it's a bug by definition.


Sometimes it's a bug even when the code behave as intended.


They have systems that mimic vision for AI which failed in this instance, that's a bug. Had they manually made a list of every single potential target in the FOG and added them to a blacklist but forgot the one wolf, then that'd arguably be an oversight.


The code is just the code. She literally can't be coded to ignore something and then decide not to. If she does, then it turns out she was unintentionally coded NOT to ignore it. The definition of bug depends on the intent of the code.


> to forget him. forget who?


***bang! you have open base on top plane***


The only thing effective to *make* Riot fix/adjust a champ is finding a strategy for him to be completely broken in pro play so people see it on stage and think "Wow, this is actualy fuckin bullshit" Ive been abusing Mordekaiser jungle (sitting at a cool 53-56% wr in elos plat and below) for months now to get free elo that I then piss away on my hardstuck S4 assassin play in midlane. And Riot doesnt seem to give a single fuck as long as the pick is still flying under the radar and people arent actively starting a shitstorm on Reddit every other day like they did with Yummi...


They have nerfed jungle Morde several times what do you mean.


Maybe because balancing the game around the worst players is a terrible idea. The skill discrepancy will always matter more in low ELO so that there is no point of balancing around it. You balance around high ELO and let low ELO sort itself out. Mord jungle goes to a 49% winrate at plat. He isn't even close to being op. If riot balanced around silver then everyone plat and up would stop playing.


They balance around both elos, actually. See phreaks recent videos on YouTube.


I feel like people forget the main point of balance is to make the game enjoyable for its players. Most players who play the game are low elo, and it wouldn't make sense to achieve some hypothetical True Balance™ at the cost of enjoyment for a large part of the player base. Generally speaking I feel like Riot does a pretty good job at some how keeping a massive roster balanced across such a large disparity of skill levels, with some outliers of course. Edit: Copy and pasted over original comment


Ok but you literally can't balance around low ELO because people are wildly better at different things. Maybe you're good at cs but terrible at reading jungle ganks. You can't balance a champion around people playing it incorrectly because then a lot of people at low ELO can't play a lot of champs. Low ELO is impossible to balance properly.


You can balance the game somewhat around low elo by balancing/nerfing champions that are generally very easy to succeed with in low elo while getting significantly harder to succeed with the higher elo you go. You can figure some of these champs out by simply looking at winrates across elos. Champions like Darius and Amumu for example (maybe could put Nasus there too at least in terms of past), have been the historical low elo pubstompers because of how one-dimensional they are and at least in case of Amumu I know that in the past he has been nerfed purely with low elo in mind. Riot has to keep kinda one-dimensional, high impact and damage champs in check in terms of low elo or otherwise they will run rampart there.You are not wrong that people have wildly different areas they're good at but there are some general areas of the game in which you can very easily spot the skill difference between low elo and high elo player. Mechanics is one very clear area where the lower elo you go the worse people generally are. Which is again why champions possessing very simple mechanics and high impact thrive in low elo.


As much as I wish riot went the dota balancing route, this just isn't true. They specifically construct nerfs and buffs to affect distinct skill brackets. If you look at the 13.4 summary, they've even put a color coded key in to see at a glance what brackets they're targeting with changes


I feel like people forget the main point of balance is to make the game enjoyable for its players. Most players who play the game are low elo, and it wouldn't make sense to achieve some hypothetical *True Balance™* at the cost of enjoyment for a large part of the player base. Generally speaking I feel like Riot does a pretty good job at some how keeping a massive roster balanced across such a large disparity of skill levels, with some outliers of course.


Maybe in 1% of cases this is true. Every time I see that colour it's combined with the others. I don't think I've ever seen it alone. And never for a champ that has such a low winrate at platinum.


>Ive been abusing Mordekaiser jungle (sitting at a cool 53-56% wr in elos plat and below) i'm sorry but in addition to someone else commenting that he *has* been nerfed... 53-56% wr in plat and below isn't really "abusing" anything or particularly remarkable lol just because you do alright on one champion and feed your ass off on others doesn't mean the champion you do ok on is somehow busted or hidden op it just means you're alright on that champion and ass on the others


They nerfed Qiyana 8 times without touching her bugs. So there doesn't seem to be a connection between balancing and bug fixing. Though they are recently starting to fix them which I really appreciate


When i see how you write 'Yuumi' i guessed you are a Cho OTP :3


They reworked him to forget about him again for next 10 years.


Lethality Yorick makes me want to gouge out my own eyeballs.


These ghouls will do it for you np


So the way it works is maiden will sometimes attack the nearest camp if the jungle camp dies in some way - i havent worked out yet. There is also another way of triggering it by casting E on blue buff when its not in vision, and the entire party will run to wolves to kill them. Same deal with red and raptors. No clue at all on this one.


I've played a lot of Yorick and have an idea here. Maiden will sometimes seem to "predict" Yorick entering combat. This is most obvious when an enemy champ walks past Maiden towards Yorick, she will often turn and start attacking the champ even if they haven't technically entered combat with Yorick yet. I think her AI may be doing this here with Sylas approaching Yorick's vicinity but she somehow gets confused and starts doing wolves. Could also be a previously unrecorded AI change to help jungle Yorick.


I was thinking something similar to this. I think it’s the maiden looking for the nearest creep camp in combat, the Sylas had already started the camp as the blue buff died. So when the maiden checked it’s vicinity for something to aggro to, it was close enough to the wolves who were changed from “passive” to “Aggro’d” if that makes sense… So it was looking for other creeps to attack, like how it would against raptors. Not necessarily an enemy champion.


Is it AI or us it a set of commands based on set instances. I don’t think it’s truly AI, no?


AI is used as shorthand for such things and doesn't need to refer to ML specifically.


AI is broadly used in gaming since at least late 90s for the behaviour of anything not directly controlled by the player. Now ML is popular enough that we get some confusion.


Doing god's work Ninetales (When stream next?)


Even Riot doesn't know how the maide's ai works


Maiden has got ro be almost as much of an idiot as daisy


Yorick's gameplay depth comes from babysitting the fucking maiden.


Dumber, I find she is less quick to respond when you press R to get her to solo lane.


Or to try and make her stop following the enemy into their tower. It's the main reason I've stopped playing Yorick so much.


Nah. Tibbers AI >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daisy > Maiden. Maiden's AI is beyond poorly written.


Tibbers AI is only half decent since his interaction with Annie stun and going ham on the killer on death. Like the fact Annie stun just makes tibbers go, go kill this fool helps alot with the AI not being derpy asf.


I mean, there's improvements to make to Tibbers' AI but he still feels waaaaay better to use than the other two.


There's a reason I said half decent, still improvements but the whole stun interaction is one of the main reasons tibbers feels not derpy.


Would agree of daisy wasnt batshit insane


That cute little golem is just genocidal, meanwhile the Maiden... I have no idea what she wants.


You can’t even control the maiden unlike with Tibbers you can press R to tell him where to go or who to hit


You "can" control the Maiden in a wonky manner, but yes, I dream about the day her AI is just like Tibbers' instead.


I bet Yorick would get heavy nerfs if you could actually control a ranged minion y’know




Daisy just had ADHD. Or maybe she’s on the spectrum. She’ll just decide to go fucking crazy sometimes, then back to normal.


Ivern is unplayable because of how bad Daisy's AI is


Fuck this jungler in particular


Real talk wtf did sylas think would jappen chasing maiden around tho lol. Hes lucky yorick just bitch slapped him not curb stomped him.


It’s the quintessential yorick gameplay. Literally maiden picks a fight for him and he babysits it.


Had probably a rage moment when she stole his shit.


"Honor maiden, made their jg ragequit"


When the maiden serves you your LP on a silver platter.


There’s an old clip of some (presumably silver) game where the enemy team just walks past the Maiden towards baron as she ends the game solo.


You might be remembering the clip where the maiden was chilling in the death realm after Morde ult and no one could interact with her or see her while she walked down mid and ended?


Oh my god that's pure gold


God I remember that one. I got second hand tilt from it


Hehe *silver*


skill issue


u/Caenen_ do you know anything about that?


I have little to no insight into her AI scripts but LMAO. My suspicion is that her AI script has knowlege of all units even while not in vision, and because those wolves were 'in-combat' she decided to go after them just like she'd go after minions Yorick is in combat with. Makes no sense though because then why wouldn't she go after camps allies are attacking? So the next clue is noticing Sylas here. Yorick R uses a 'marker' whenever Yorick attacks something that makes the Maiden prioritise that target, if she's nearby. In the AI script that basically means "check all units in X radius for this particular buff, and then move to attack them if they exist". My more educated guess now is that Sylas after stealing Yorick R is still applying that same buff with his auto attacks (just like Yorick would) and thereby caused the Maiden to find that buff nearby on the wolves and made her move to attack them.


damn that's some string theory


So it's just my string-of-reverse-engineering-thoughts all written out. I could have shortened this to ####"I don't know for sure but my guess is that the 'attack this target please' marker buff that Yorick applies on his auto attacks is being applied by Sylas here who stole and spawned a Yorick R previously. The Maiden then follows through on her AI script and moves to attack that target as she finds it nearby; The serverside AI script doesn't require the target to be in vision to find it nearby." And I probably should have. But oh well, enjoy!


That's actually the most plausible one!


So there's no systems in place to detect who applied the mark? That would suggest that one for all Yorick (or even mirror matchup) would be an utter clusterfuck with maidens attacking everything left right and center especially in the jungle.


Of course there are, otherwise Blind Pick would be a mess and OFA wouldn't exist in general...but mistakes can happen because this type of check on neutral units is *relatively* obscure.


> and OFA wouldn’t exist in general Well, iirc they dont like OFA as a returning mode because it (used to?) creates a ton of extra work with these interactions.


It's almost like they should test these interactions whenever they make new champions and changes anyway to keep their code healthy. Sometimes they even ignore blind pick (mirror) interactions which is a **permanent** supported mode.


I mean sounds about right, it's like how in the first one for all with azir every azir controlled all soilders so it became messy asf until they put checks in the code or how syndra in one for all ults just grab all syndra balls in the area with no check so you can use like 20+ balls in a single ult from it(this might have changed haven't touched syndra in one for all the last time it was around). Like in 99% of instances a check isn't needed since it wouldn't be possible to happen so it's just code bloat or well it was until sylas and viego were made. As for mirror matches from blindpick they have checks there to have stuff marked as ally and enemy just sylas ult steal is more like it's a fully copy of said ult not a this is marked as my ult.


Spaghetti theory*


Fam when a bug causes Caenen to be confused you know its some weird shit.


is there a reason why they don’t let you control the maiden like you can control tibbers or daisy


Pressing R a second time with maiden already causes her to split push the nearest lane. Since Yorick is uniquely a pet user that likes to side lane, it’s likely that they’re just going to keep her that way. It is worth noting though that she’s supposed to follow Yorick once he gets a certain distance away - a much shorter distance than this clip shows. Between that leash distance and his E causing her to aggro on targets, he already has decent control over her once you get used to the mechanics


i agree he has decent control but i think it’d be nice to allow you to directly influence her by pressing alt or something like the other pets


I mean it’s cute that it has it’s own sort of sentience


tbh the Maiden originally just split pushed directly. It was not intended to be your "companion", but rather something like a Herald, that just has one purpose. They buffed Yorick by letting the Maiden follow you instead so Yorick didn't become completely useless when split-pushing was not a good option. You were not intended to have a fully controllable pet like Tibbers. The fact that it follows you at all is already a buff.




> What are they scared of? Obviously, they scared of Tech Dept.


Wait for Naafiri or whatever they are called. Presumably it's a pack of dogs so we might get a multi unit champion. Or not, riot will tell.


they said Naafiri should be a fairly simple champion mechanically, so multi unit controls sounds implausible unfortunately. neat thing to think about for a future champion though for sure


Azir soldiers can attack in 3 different direct no ?


when people say micro they mean stuff like lone druid and his bear in dota 2, or nature prophet and his treants. units you can control individually independent of the main champion. presumably riot doesn't really want this in league because it's an extremely high skill ceiling kind of thing


I mean they could make it so that to release her you would have to hold down R and channel for a couple of seconds thus opening up the possibility of controlling her like a normal pet, but a freely controlled maiden would probably suck up too much of yorick's power budget


because maiden is 10 times stronger than tibbers and daisy, though gating her power through clunkiness isn't a good choice imo.


A yes, good old maiden. They fixed the leach range down to 600 a few patches ago and then next patch it broke again with no explanation and many months no fix still. Good old indy company.


Maiden goes where Maiden pleases, wait wrong champ


It would be fun if they had a few command to the maiden, like push this lane, jg and steal camp, go support friends in 1v1.


We have the first command.


We have all those commands. they are called hitting E on the specified target ;-)


Yeah but i mean like an evolved second R click


Me and the mates have a saying for this "ah yes, maiden is off maidening again". Fr though, can we please fix her goddam AI, she's about as useful as an ashtray on a motorcycle due to this stupidity.


She is the sole reason I don't really play Yorick anymore, the amount of times she's just been completely useless where if she worked correctly it could be amazing.


Yup same here, loved yorick but her inconsistencies make it impossible to play properly sometimes. I think it's her ability to be "sent" to solo lane. Just doesn't work properly at all, gotta remove that feature and just have her operate similar to daisy or tibs aka hard leashed to yoricks booty.


Yorick needed 13 to buy his item. As a good wife she helped her husband.




Excellent camerawork.


When maiden is a better jungler than I am


i mean the ign checks out?


AI is real


I'm sorry but this is fucking hilarious and completely in line with yorick things lol


They should add some light ai to the pets and see what they could learn


Looking at the mapstate, I think by hitting the E, after blue died, it looked for the next closest target to attack. The next closest target was that wolf. How the code allowed her to target an out of vision enemy is definately a bug.


I love when I'm battling my laner and Maiden is hanging out next to us casually farming minions while I die.


AIs are evolving, even in LoL.






That's why Yorick is about to get nerfed, Maiden AI too strong.


Meowden does what she pleases.


AI is getting stronger with every minute


Was expecting maiden to show mastery emote and flash over the wall.


to be fair he is wearing a goofy skin so technically alright if maiden goofs up, if I was a riot dev I would fix this, but make an exception for goofy skins /s


good play by the maiden, props!


Maiden accidentally copied Murk Wolf's Spirit AI


AI is really evolving


She literally made a good play.


I wish they would just make maiden controllable and have yorick be like Lone Druid from dota but that’d be too hard to balance I guess


https://youtu.be/bYaqn2QJZ58 riot what his that ?




Was she asked to elaborate further?


Unpopular opinion: All summons in MOBA's are low skill / low IQ game design


That sylas e did go through?


Not random he pressed r


No I didn't, you can see her following me again after taking the wolf