Not at all. If its straight/bi/pan dudes finding two women having sex sexy, or straight/bi/pan women finding two dudes having sex sexy - its all good. No harm, no foul.
They do it because they enjoy the fantasy of it all. Just like us gay dudes enjoying the same fantasy... No one gets harmed, no one gets hurt. Someone gets off.
This world is filled with murder, rape, massacres, torture, oppression... someone finding a bit of titillation in the idea of two guys having sex or two women having sex is not just harmless, I think its even beneficial.
>I think its even beneficial.
I might get downvoted for this but I agree. Let's be honest, the reason why we are sometimes lucky to get low budgeted shows like Heartstopper, Young Royals, Our Flag Means Death etc is because of the many straight females who watch and promote those shows on social media. They are probably the reason why most of such shows haven't been cancelled yet. If we were to gatekeep straight females from watching these gay contents, the views of only we gays/LGBT folks will not be enough to amount a renewal or creation of these shows.
The only problem I have is when they sexualise us in real life, that's when it becomes creepy and so far I or any of my friends haven't experienced that yet.
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r/MenLovingMenMedia
It's happened to me irl so maybe that's why I personally find it creepy even when it's done in fiction. I once was friends with a straight girl until she brought it to my attention that she shipped me and my cousin and had based her OCs in her "yaoi stories" on me and him. She insisted it was fine because we are both gay and technically not related by blood (we were still raised as cousin and see eachother as such, so IMO it still would count as incest regardless of blood) I tried to explain to her numerous times why I found it creepy and wanted her to stop, and she'd just get mad at me and insisted it was only creepy when men did it and kept trying to convince me to date/fuck my cousin IRL and kept writing "stories" about us and claiming they were about fictional characters she made up. So that experience mixed with the fact most lesbians I've met aren't fond of straight men sexualizing them, has lead me to believe it's creepy, inappropriate, and objectifying when anyone fetishizes someone else's sexual orientation that isn't their own. Personally I also think it's slightly creepy how many gay men fetishize straight men. But I may be biased do to my experience with that old "friend" and her obsession with the idea of me fucking my cousin.
Yeah, when this happened was 5 years ago and I was 18 and she was 17, so I just hope she grew out of that before she creeped anyone else out on the level she did me. I legit couldn't see my cousin for like a year without thinking of her weird stories and getting uncomfortable.
Would it have made you feel comfortable if a gay male fetishized you and your cousin in this way? Cause I would think that it would be creepy to be a character in any kind of comic or story, without your consent, regardless of the gender or sexual orientation of the authorā¦
Yes it would have,(edit: incase it wasnt obvious, I meant it would have creeped me out even if a gay man did this, it would NOT have made me comfortable with it) but she would typically use the argument "it's only creepy when men do it to lesbians, it's impossible for a woman to creep on a man" which I strongly disagree with, and she DEFINITELY fetishized gay people full-on. So idk, while that situation would've been uncomfortable even if it was a gay guy, I still find it very creepy to fetishize someone else's sexuality, especially when their sexuality doesn't include you. It being with my cousin definitely made it worse, but I'm still not fond of the idea of ANY woman fetishizing my sexual orientation. And to make things clear, I also think it's creepy when gay guys have "straight men" fetishes.
Yeah, to be fair I probably should've mentioned this happened when I was 18 and she was 17. So idk if she behaves this way or if she's grown out of it, but it was very off-putting and uncomfortable, and made me feel less comfortable around my cousin just because every time I saw him for a while I'd think of her weird "stories" and get super uncomfortable.
Ehh...
The benefits are there, admittedly. These shows aren't bad. But there is an issue with having shows about gay people for an audience of mostly not gay people.
These shows aren't made for us.
The interests that the producers have to keep in mind with these shows becomes "what's most entertaining for a straight, female audience" with no need, really, to have any concern for what *we* want. Because why create a show for those who actually are LGBTQ when you could design a show around the larger audience and make way more money.
The shows aren't bad, but I wouldn't describe the fact that the viewerbase is composed almost entirely of straight women as "beneficial," no matter how many new shows it ends up producing.
I don't want to gatekeep straight women from watching gay content. I want gay content written BY and FOR gay men and I want straight women learning we aren't just guys they can get off to.
EXACTLY. I'm fine with women who enjoy consuming gay content. HOWEVER I don't like that they have taken over the market and made it represent them and their interest more than it does actual gay men and real lgbt+ issues. And I want straight women to realize we don't just exist for them to fetishize and obsess over, and I want more people to admit this is just as objecrifying as when straight men do it to lesbians, because it is. There has been several times I've felt objectified because straight women have reduced my sexuality to their fantasy. I've even met cis women who say they want to date a gay man as if that makes any fucking sense? Like I dont exist to be some straight girls "ideal but out of reach partner" like if someone was dating them they wouldn't be GAY they'd be bi, or pan, or some other label, but a gay man would objectively NOT want to date a cishet woman.
Gay men do date and even marry straight women actually but their only reason to do so is to assimilate among straight men and gain the prestige of passing as heterosexual to society. But there's not as much that straight women get out of it considering that man doesn't actually feel attracted to them.
Back when women had to be the property of their father or husband, they would marry gay men to get away from the straight men in their life and essentially be free as the gay guy would then give them all the freedom they legally can. In exchange, the gay guy passes as straight and gets the safety and security of heterosexual marriage.
Yes but I don't consider that a real "relationship" gay man CAN technically be in a "straight relationship" but as you stated, it's always either because societal pressure, or transactional in some sense. I don't consider that a real "romantic relationship" and that definitely not what the women I'm referring to wanted when they said they wanted to "date a gay man"
The straight women you are talking about do not want to "date" anyone at all. At least not emotionally. They essentially want a bestie that feels more exotic because he is gay. It's the typical tokenization that straight women put us through.
But I do feel like straight women often sexualize gay men to a certain degree and itās creepy. This includes straight women going on Grindr to lurk and be voyeurs or straight women chanting repeatedly for two gay guys to make out for their perverse pleasure. I donāt want to be sexualized by women as Iām sure most of them donāt want men to do the same.
Gus is gay? It's been years since I watched breaking bad, but I knew I was gay back then and I thought I would've noticed if gus was gay. When do they even confirm that? Not denying it, I just don't remember him ever mentioning his sexuality or any romantic partners. But maybe I just missed it.
They killed his partner by the pool, and the wine guy in better call saul seemed to have been put in to remove doubt, gay here too, pretty sure gail played for our team too
Okay thank you. I do remember the guy getting killed by the pool but for some reason I thought they were just "buisness partners, and friends" can't believe I totally missed that context. Guess I wasn't paying as much attention when I watched that show as I thought. Thank you again for the explanation. After I made that comment I did think of the pool scene and think "wait, was that guy his actual partner" but I had already made my comment and moved on by then. Also I haven't seen any of better call Saul so I wouldn't know any context presented from thar show.
Their is not much context in better call saul either, they really want gus to be a mystery, and youāll love better call saul if you liked breaking bad at all, very well made show
I kind of disagree. A gay man and a straight woman enjoy all-male intimacy in significantly different ways.
With gay men, it's aspirational. We want to be in that situation and can see ourselves in either of the men involved. Straight women do not have that same insight into the desire to be with ANOTHER man. They instead have a sort of "female gaze" for it. The men are only getting hot and heavy so SHE can get off. Or maybe she imagines inserting herself and reinforcing the "there must be a woman" heteronormative standard.
It can be harmless sure but it can also teach women to see gay men as existing only for their pleasure in a dehumanizing kind of way. Just like straight men enjoy trans women and all-female sex in porn but it doesn't really translate into any respect or love for these women in real life. These women only serve as the straight guys' fantasy and so the straight guys see no other reason why they are trans or gay other than that.
While I would like to see more queer authors get notoriety, representation is representation. In all the books I have read written by straight women, the actual relationship has been portrayed in a very positive and healthy way, which is something we need more of.
For those interested in a gay romance series written by a gay author, try Something Like Summer (and all the books in that series), by Jay Bell.
I totally agree. It IS beneficial and even healthy to see healthy depictions of sexual behavior. It's normal to want to see them, and it's normal to enjoy watching them.
I'd even go so far as to say, for men especially, it's an absolute necessity to have such an avenue for release available.
To be quite honest I think the number of men who feel forced in to being overtly sexual as a social gesture around other men - and the number of women who hide their sexualities around other people are both somewhat equal making both groups of men and women who need that release similar in size.
That's a great point I hadn't considered. Although I've become more sure lately that women do have equally potent sexual needs, and thus I believe they equally deserve to share in such pleasures without it being a secret thing.
I mean we're all people and I just wish we could be totally honest about these things.
I see what youāre saying but I donā agree. I like women but I donāt want them involved in my sexual life. Iām gay and like guys. I find women to be a boner-killer in any situation that I, as a gay male, would find erotic. Stay in your own lane - I donāt interfere in my straight friends sexual activities.
Well they're not involved in your sexlife.
And just like you finding a straight dude hot, some random straight woman can't saunter along going "stay in your lane, my vagina gets dry by you thinking that"
If you find it problematic that a lot of people find dudes hot, not just you, well... thats your problem not anyone elses
No one is involving themselves in your sex life. You are involving them by thinking about them thinking about the same smut...?
You are confused and make no sense. First of all, I donāt find straight guys hot - why the fuck would I fantasize about someone that could never reciprocate? Thatās your fucked up delusion. Second, between straight women lurking on Grindr to get their pussies wet as voyeurs to straight women at gay bars chanting for two guys to make out in front of them so they can get off, they are involved in gay mens sexual life. Maybe not mine personally but I have had several straight female co workers make comments about what they imagine my sex life is like. Comments they would never make to straight co workers and the type of shit that would send them to H.R. if those comments were made to them.
Sorry you seem to be making an enormous issue out of this - if you look pussy, great. I donāt. Go fuck your mother (whether you are a male or female, enjoy). You are a dumb cunt - fuck off
Iām not. My original one sentence reply was neutral and 100% non-provocative. Your reply was an over the top rant X 1000. Letās call it like it is. Mine is an opinion. Thatās all. Iām not sending out petitions to my local congressmen. Itās an opinion. Take it as such.
My "rant" that you finding women watching gay porn is a YOU problem vs your finely stated calm reply of
> "Sorry you seem to be making an enormous issue out of this - if you look pussy, great. I donāt. Go fuck your mother (whether you are a male or female, enjoy). You are a dumb cunt - fuck off"
:D
Sweety - just go out, touch grass - stop having a hissy fit that women watch gay porn. Just calm down and don't be so upset all the time
Aside from the fact that your command of the English language is poor and I highly suspect you are not American, you need to just shut the fuck up. As I said. My original reply was ONE sentence - no provocative - and you got your pussy wet. Iām positive you arenāt American and donāt quite get it. Stay in your lane of techie troubleshooting and playing dungeons and dragons. That may be your escape to reality - finding sex or love with some mythical creature. Iām 100% positive you have never been laid in your life and never will be. Again, please fuck off.
Irrelevant. Do you honestly think lesbians find it a turn on that straight guys are fantasizing over them? Get real, dude. On one hand, it is what it is but still, I donāt get off having women watching me fuck. Many years ago, I used to work as a graphic designer for a gay porn studio in L.A. I never worked on set, but several of the actors talked about a female porn director at that time that they found to be a buzz kill simply b/c she was female. I get that. Oh, BTW, the dude who posted this is Swedish. Totally different take on the topic. Just an FYI
No?
I said its impossible for you, me or anyone to dictate the fantasies of others.
Say you are watching a photo of two men having sex. In another country somewhere else - a woman is doing the same thing. It has no bearing on your enjoyment of that photo.
To get weirded out that other people have fantasies similar to your own is problematic in comparison.
No one is talking about having women come to you and watch you have sex?
Rather that if you make a porno about two men having sex, getting grossed out if one of the people buying it is a woman is a strange take.
> Oh, BTW, the dude who posted this is Swedish. Totally different take on the topic.
What? Sry I think you need to explain what you're replying to here because it doesn't make sense
No - as I said, there used to be a semi- high profile female director of gay porn. Many of the gay actors felt as if she dampened the sexual mood on set. Most of them didnāt dislike her as a person but that was just the reality. Many gay guys feel that way just as many lesbians donāt like straight guys ogling them. How the fuck is that difficult to understand? Pretty basic. And yes - you are European, no? Reddit was founded my an American man from my alma mater - Tufts - and the vast majority of people on Reddit are Americans and the topics are U.S.- centric. Not a dis - but a fact. Your take on things is skewed and not on point with what most Americans think. Word.
No, I don't feel that way at all. Yaoi is the first place I saw mlm portrayed as something beautiful and not ugly or shameful. I will always have a place in my heart for it and I have no problem with it being consumed by women too.
Oh yeah? You think yaoi is beautiful? Google boku no pico and Iām sure youāll change your mind.
Wait shit! That was made by a man! Fuck! I contradicted my own argument about women and the gay community!
Nahā¦ I was just stating how weird things are. The sexualizing of gay guys, however Iām not googling what you just said because I donāt trust anime stuffā¦ due to reasons.
I mean they do it in a tamer way than men sexualize lesbians . That soft style that women do has a little tension but they're clearly not targeted for most gay people.
I guess thatās trueā¦ But I still find it weird! I asked my friends on this on our discord server and one of them is a lesbian and they also agree itās kinda fucked up!
And I just learned what BL is today and now I kinda want to read one made by a gay dude! Because only a gay dude would know the ins and outs of a typical gay relationship!
Relationships are relationships, there is no super sekrit special way to write gay relationships as a gay man than as a woman - people have the same goals - to be loved, to have companionship, to be a family - smut is smut. You're really overthinking this a lot.
Most gay manga made my men falls under the bara category and a lot of it is 90% hardcore fucking with a flimsy setup to make it happen lol. I can DM you some recommendations or sites if you want for explicit or non-explicit gay comics.
What is bara? Keep in mind Iām not Japaneseā¦ Iām a foreign Irish man who grew up in Michigan, I donāt know Japanese except āraw fishā and kanichiwaw which is hello apparently. Talk to me as if Iām a five year old who rambles alot.
Bara (short for barazoku) is a category of gay art and comics depicting masculine, muscular, chubby, etc. men. It's not the pretty boys you see in most yaoi/BL. It's also typically drawn by and for men.
Okayā¦ just looked it up because I was worried I would get some weird type of pornā¦ now I know better because of you! And yep thatās most gay men I have seen, which I find strange since Iām just a smol little gremlin.
There is definitely a lot of weird, extreme bara, but there are also some really sweet stories. The vast majority of it is just straight up porn though, and while I like that sometimes, I wish there were more story driven bara comics.
I was browsing anime streaming sites clicking on the dumbest sounding names once and I found this anime called Super Lovers. The first episode was adorable, so I started reading the manga. It was the wildest manga i've ever read in my life, it is crazier than Killing Stalking. Both BL genre.
These books always seem to be written by women, I was so surprised! I am glad they aren't trying to pass it off as being for lgbt people really, it seems that they make it obvious their target audience is women.
I really don't understand it, and it can be read as another form of objectification. I know that yaoi has had some criticism from gay men because of that and some have started to use the term "geicomi" for works about gay men created by queer artists. I guess at this point, I'm not super offended by it and some of my favorite stories about gay men were written by women. I think we all get a little too uppity over sex and nudity as a society.
Might be worth mentioning that it's not necessarily 'heterosexual' as much as it was the gay relationship dynamic during the Edo period, so it's definitely rooted in authentic Japanese culture. Now, does that mean it's accurate to modern-day gay experiences, and that it should remain the primary depiction of gay male relationship? No. But it's wrong to call it 'heterosexual' when a focus on an older/younger, top/bottom dynamic and exclusively anal sex is in fact how generations of Japanese gay and bi men experienced sexuality.
Agreed, many people are prudes but Iām just saying itās weird thatās allā¦ Like would any self respecting lesbian let a straight guy watch her having sex? Nah thatās like being a cuck but to a whole new level man. Iām taking it to the extreme here, thatās the most extreme example I can think of because I like to think in extremes.
I agree, it is a bit of a double standard, but it's not exactly 1:1 because of how women have historically been treated compared to men, even gay men in certain times and societies. I think that, in addition to the fact lesbian objectification for straight men is more mainstream than gay men objectification for women, is why we see more people taking issue with it in that context.
Butā¦ I never fantasize about straight guys because I always have super realistic fantasies. I get rejected alot in my fantasies more than real lifeā¦ itās almost as if reality is a fantasy and fantasy is realityā¦
I wouldnāt judge. My best friend is a āwomanā who writes M/M romance because her life circumstances make it impossible to transition and she DEFINITELY should have been born a man. She feels like a gay man so Iām likeāyou do you
Ahhā¦ what do you mean āwomenā? Isnāt it a trans man? I know someone whoās transitioning and they also think itās kinda fucked up! Maybe itās just a regional thing and thatās why this topic is controversial.
Thatās like saying men shouldnāt write stories or comics with a lead woman character because he isnāt a womanā¦ or an able bodied person shouldnāt write a handicapped character. Adult oriented books do tend to have some sexual (or a lot, depending on the author and type of romance) aspects. If the author is a good author, they probably did some research and ask questions to make it as ārealisticā as possible. That why thereās a huge joke about some authors search engines being problematic when they are researching for a murder mystery novel š¬ If there was a stipulation that an author had to write only about what they have personally experienced, then we wouldnāt have a lot of books, comics, movies, or tv showsā¦ We have never had a zombie apocalypse, Iām pretty sure that we donāt have a dystopian lifestyle where the US was entirely destroyed, and I believe that the Sanderson sisters didnāt come back from the deadā¦ twiceā¦ and if you want a story about a specific person, from that personās perspective, you should read autobiographies.
Yes. It creeps me out. I dont read straight female authors who write gay fiction. Those books are not written for us. They are written for straight females.
I read gay male authors only. Because thats my tribe. I would rather my money went to them.
What books are there written by gay men? Because technically they need the money more since less people read there stuff right? Iām thinking about it equity wise yknow?
Ummmā¦ no. Thats incorrect. You canāt say every last one of them is in that same position. Thatās called broad-brushing and its the opposite of equity because you are generalizing.
Anyhoo, here are 20ish gay male authors. Check them out:
ā¢ Federico GarcĆa Lorca
ā¢ Larry Kramer
ā¢ Jackie Curtis
ā¢ Lou Sullivan
ā¢ Allen Ginsberg
ā¢ Jean Genet
ā¢ Jiraiya
ā¢ Marshall Thornton
ā¢ Alan Hollinghurst
ā¢ Loren A. Olson
ā¢ Matthew Clark Davison
ā¢ Radclyffe Hall
ā¢ Luis NegrĆ³n
ā¢ Armistead Maupin
ā¢ Edmund White
ā¢ Rupert Smith
ā¢ J. C. Price
ā¢ Rob Byrnes
ā¢ Michael Nava
ā¢ Greg Herren
ā¢ Neil S. Plakcy
20 gale male authors among hundreds of thousands of womenā¦ damn big pond small fish.
But I get what youāre saying about generalizing, I typically tend to think of life in patterns, thatās why I always look at things in extremes, my therapist says itās something about Idk PTSD bullshit or somethingā¦ I remember her saying itās a defensive thing. Calling it a snake and stick or whatever. Sorry for rambling Iām really fucking tired and sorry for swearing I tend to get like that when Iām stressed because I have a quiz coming up and I need to study more.
O there are thousands moreā¦ just go look. Non apologies. Weāre just talking here. Go get some sleep before you fall down.
I wonder how many people who say "it's harmless" would say the same about straight men sexualizing lesbians... whenever that topic comes up I notice people JUMP to talk about how horrible and objectifying it is to lesbians. Yet here you brought up the double standard of it and everyone jumps to defend women who fetishize and objectify gay men. I hate this double standard, and I think it's creepy and wrong. I think it's just as wrong and creepy for women to fetishize gay men as it is for men to fetishize lesbians. And I think to say it's fine for straight women but not straight men plays into a sexist double-standard. It's objectifying and creepy either way and as a gay man I dont feel represented or comfortable at all when straight women fetishize me and my sexual orientation. I've literally had a women start shipping me with my cousin just because we are both gay and "not related by blood so it's fine" when she refused to admit it was creepy or that what she was doing was the same thing straight men do to lesbians, she got mad at me and said it wasn't bad when women do it, so I had to cut her out of my life because she kept bringing up how she wanted me to fuck my cousin. It's fucking creepy and I don't want women fetishizing me. Especially not for my orientation which I'm ALREADY oppressed for.
Most women who write gay romance don't fetishise or objectify gay men in the same way straight guys do to lesbians. When men write a lesbian love story, 99% of the time it is fetish porn. This isn't the same for women writing gay stories like at all.
While there are unfortunately plenty of women who actually fetishise gay relationships, it is FAR from the level of how straight guys fetishise lesbians. Especially since for lesbians it can be dangerous due to violence from straight guys.
Women writing gay romance is not fetishising or objectification. It is completely harmless and without women the gay romance genre would barely exist. Unless a woman is fetishising gay men in real life it is not a problem.
I consider that take to be sexist and unfair. I don't think it's fair to say it's fine for one gender to do something but wrong and objectifying for the other to do the exact same thing. I believe it's either wrong or isn't, regardless of sex or gender.
I agree with OP, I genuinely dont get why it's controversial to find this creepy and admit that its just as bad when cishet women fetishize queer people as it is when cishet men do. Sexist double standards suck no matter which way they go.
Doesnāt bother me ā except that actual gay authors are now getting lost in the deluge of female written gay fantasies. Good authors should be able to tell a gay romance honestly but very few female authors have shown the insight to understand the very different dynamics and sex in gay relationships. Annie Proulx is one of the few to really get into a gay manās head. Many contemporary gay romances could have a women substituted into the story and it would make absolutely no difference (which doesnāt make it a bad story ā just one for a different audience). Gay men telling stories for other men are having trouble breaking through now.
A lot of male BL authors like to depict men as very hairy or extremely muscle-bound, and well if my preferences in men fall more towards to pretty men or twinks then the stories of female authors I shall read.
In all honesty though, the only time when I have a problem with women sexualizing gay relationships is when they start carrying their fantasies over into real life and start impacting the lives of others. It's just a step up from women trying to pair up two gays they know.
Theyāre women. They like men and like seeing men with other men. Look, itās not a bad thing that women fantasize about men in a physical and emotional way. I read a lot of trash gay romance novels. A lot. Yeah, the majority of them are written by women, but so what?
Thatās fine but itās kind of a turn off. There are some leather bars that still have back rooms where guys get down and dirty and itās a boner killer to have women lurking at the entrance of the room, watching guys have sex. Or, to have women lurking on Grindr trying to flirt with guys. Fuck - Iām a gay male for a reason - I like dudes and donāt want women fucking in my sex life!! Thatās it.
As a gay trans guy... I think the assumption that any given person who likes gay romance comics is a (particularly straight) woman is very questionable.
I was always drawn to gay male fiction, and I had no idea why. I was uncomfortable with the gender roles in M/F fiction, F/F just didn't really interest me, I was grossed out by sexual depictions of women in general, and I really, *really* enjoyed gay male relationships. I had no idea why. But I longed to have something like that. I was never able to date in real life, my dysphoria was just too strong (even though I had no idea that it was dysphoria at the time), and gay fiction offered me what I couldn't have because I was doomed to be a woman. Well, turns out I'm not a woman, I'm a gay guy. Suddenly my life makes sense.
I also know *other* people who would've fallen into the 'woman obsessed with BL' stereotype (not fetishizing real-life gay men, but only reading BL and preferring it over every other type of relationship) who later turned out to be non-binary or trans men, too.
Not everyone has the luxury to be out, either. Not everyone has realized themselves yet.
Now, *are* there plenty of women who enjoy gay fiction? Yes, sure. They don't all do it in a fetishizing way though - it's perfectly possible to simply enjoy relationship dynamics outside of one's orientation. And I'm just saying, but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if a significant percentage of 'women obsessed with BL' actually aren't women at all.
I looked at womans gay BLā¦ I have to say that gender role thing is kinda bullshit because you have basically a man as a woman in the books. Pretty much they believe there canāt be two guys in a relationship who act likeā¦ well guys!
"Guys" aren't a monolith, and though I certainly wish for more diversity in BL, the dynamics in the way relationships in BL are portrayed actually have roots in gay male culture of the Edo period. Do I *enjoy* reading those dynamics? No, not really, but my opinions are also informed by my culture. I don't relate to 'bara' comics with a bunch of muscly, hyper-masculine sex-obsessed men either, and those *are* written mostly by gay men.
i think itās good in a way, most mlm media comes from women, but also seeing how straight women (who donāt make gay media) can be OBSESSED with it, makes me quite uncomfortable
It can be weird and obsessive at times but it is mostly harmless infatuation. I would say as an avid reader and writer, mlm stories written by women are very basic with predictable archetypes (fem and masc/ sub and dom/ power play, etc.) and even the way sex goes down is the same way that straight sex is perceived. However, I donāt support putting a cap or to gatekeep a form of artistic discord. I have written cis and hetero characters before, it would be a double standard to believe that I should and could produce/consume media that are about an identity different from mine.
Fantasizing about it, go for it. Write a book about it, yes. What I don't like are straight women that come to gay places hoping for a bit of a titillating show when guys there kiss.
Yes! But if you read their so-called "gay romance", it's actually "penis-envy" romance. It's extremely stereotypical. One man is usually hyper-masculine, often bisexual or doubtful about his sexuality or he is straight but having sex with a man is a kind of kink. He always remains sexually available to women. Of course he's the top.
The other is highly feminine, often presented with long flowing hair, though confident of his gay sexuality. He's a bottom. He's actually the straight female author's fantasy identity.
So they don't present gay relationships at all. They present straight relationships where the woman has a penis. The sad thing about this is the authors actually either straight out lie about their gender or have a male sounding pseudonym.
What's the harm in it? What if young gay tens read this shlt and think that is how sexual relations between men really are? They should at least be honest about themselves.
My issue with their comics is usually more to do with the fact that the way they draw the men is very androgynous. I don't mind gay relationships being sexualized, but I don't like the implication that it only makes sense to straight people if one guy is clearly the submissive and they act more fem. I feel more grossed out and find it creepier when having children is presented as a given and that being gay is more of an obstacle to that goal than having children is an obstacle to the goal of being your most authentic self. The projected priorities is what creeps me out, I guess.
It's fiction. It's fantasy. These are playgrounds for people's erotic imaginations. I think if the writers of these comics actually find out what happens in real life gay relationships, they would probably be completely grossed out by it. Lol.
Like what? That sometimes we like to lick a assholes? And we are basically savages in bed, hehe me and boyfriend always come out of the bedroom looking like we were attacked by wild animals due to us biting each other.
At first I find it weird, but those gay romance are actually catered for straight women who fantasize that guys can be emotional too. And they self insert as the submissive feminine bottom. Most women are probably not into anal.
Straight women fetishize us as much or even more than straight men fetishize lesbians. For example the biggest consumers of boy love (BL/Yaoi) serieses and mangas are women.
In terms of abstract fantasy it's fine. In terms of say women coming to gay bars and sexually harassing gay guys in their safe space thats unacceptable. I think that women are, on average, slightly better at rationalising porn as an abstract fantasy then men are so I don't think that women coming into gay spaces and harrasing men is caused by fantasy literature.
I think whatās the issue is that people assume you canāt like romance if it isnāt a reflection of your own sexuality. If we only watched and enjoyed what we could relate to then we wouldnāt watch a lot of tv. Maybe Iām over simplifying this, but it seems that simple to me. It only becomes a problem when people sexualize it in real life. Thatās harmful.
Nah not at all. Without women, gay romance would barely exist. Its the same thing with reading straight romance despite being gay, me personally i read a lot of straight romance which isn't and shouldn't be considered weird. Same thing with women writing gay romance. It only becomes a problem when they start sexualising real life gay men.
It turns out that most viewers of gay male porn are also women. But, to me, that makes me smile. It's more proof that god loves us gay people. And wants us to be happy.
Also, a gay relationship, I mean isn't that already denoting sexuality? Aren't most gay relationships already sexualized?
Frankly I never held with all this nonsense about how "porn" is harmful because of "objectifying" women or men.
Don't get me wrong, it sure as hell does objectify them, and that's part of why it's fun to watch. All the emotional and psychological and other crap is left out, it's just sex and two (or more) people enjoying their physical prowess and excitement together.
I'd even argue most "porno" isn't really pornographic - in my book, it's not obscene to depict lovemaking between two (or more) people, why should it be? As long as it's not showing anyone getting hurt, and everyone is into it -- what is prurient about that?
We're sexual beings, we humans. We're animals like other animals in the animal kingdom.
Why cant we leave all the judgments on the stable floor and just horse around and enjoy it?
We are beautiful people. Let's not make it obscene to be human.
Enjoy having a gaggle a straight women hover over you and your partner as you fuck. I have lost count of the number straight women who have told me they want to watch me and my boyfriend have sex. I find it repulsive and every time I think about it, I get Sick. No offense to women but stay the fuck out of my sex life. They are obsessed! Maybe b/c me and my boyfriend are considered to be ā straight actingā whatever that means but fuckā¦no!
Those women did a lot to normalize gay relationships - especially in media and film. The ones who do sexualize and objectify men are usually other men. Stop persecuting or allies, we depend on them.
Not at all, at least for me with my female friends.
I was hanging out with a friend last week and I told her a story about how I had a crush on a classmate. She believed it was cute.
We are on summer holidays so I didnāt see him in a monthā¦ That day coincidentaly we see him on a square, my friend told me he couldnāt stop looking at me, now she āshipā us and says itās so cute if both of us were together.
I have no problem with non men enjoying or creating mlm content, I just wish it didnāt feel like it was MOSTLY non men. It feels like every time a new gay book gets popular (RW&RB, heartstopper, etc), itās written by someone who isnāt a gay man.
The only way I feel right now is horny Iām craving a big cock to ride and I am in need of feeling some hot cum deep in me, and the sexy feeling of it dripping down my ass and thighs, I like watching it in the mirror while I have my tiny pink panties fishnet stocking.
Back a million years ago, long before Kindle Unlimited, when you had to purchase each of your Amazon books, 90 out of the 100 Bestsellers in Gay Romance were written by male authors. After Kindle Unlimited, where anyone can self-publish and download for free, 95 out of 100 are written by female authors. The difference is distinct.
The female authors writing fifteen years ago like Charlie Richards, Garrett Leigh, Mary Calmes, RJ Scott, and Goddess bless her soul, Sandrine Gasq-Dion, wrote from a gay male perspective. The sex is raw, itās gritty, and itās real. But so many of the new authors are clearly writing for a female audience. Case in point, MPREG. It didnāt really exist in gay literature prior to KU, now Amazon is littered with it. Seriously, how many gay men want hot flashes, periods and pregnancy? š¤®
Some of us like our sex slow and sensual. I mean, you usually get to a point where you go full on animal, but I like to work up to it slow. Iād rather have sex last longer than 5 min.
But thatās the thing about the authors I mentioned, theyāre not the trashy porn shop paperback books of slam-bam fiction, theyāre women more than capable of writing male erotica as the best of gay male authors. You just donāt feel slathered in butter on pillows of velvet. š„°
Waitā¦ wtf? Who would want a period? I think thatās the best part of being a gay man, I understand men all the time since I am one, and pregnancies? Hell no, I hate kids, every time a kid walks towards me I run away in fear. So I think being gay is a blessing.
Not at all. If its straight/bi/pan dudes finding two women having sex sexy, or straight/bi/pan women finding two dudes having sex sexy - its all good. No harm, no foul. They do it because they enjoy the fantasy of it all. Just like us gay dudes enjoying the same fantasy... No one gets harmed, no one gets hurt. Someone gets off. This world is filled with murder, rape, massacres, torture, oppression... someone finding a bit of titillation in the idea of two guys having sex or two women having sex is not just harmless, I think its even beneficial.
>I think its even beneficial. I might get downvoted for this but I agree. Let's be honest, the reason why we are sometimes lucky to get low budgeted shows like Heartstopper, Young Royals, Our Flag Means Death etc is because of the many straight females who watch and promote those shows on social media. They are probably the reason why most of such shows haven't been cancelled yet. If we were to gatekeep straight females from watching these gay contents, the views of only we gays/LGBT folks will not be enough to amount a renewal or creation of these shows. The only problem I have is when they sexualise us in real life, that's when it becomes creepy and so far I or any of my friends haven't experienced that yet. šššš r/MenLovingMenMedia
It's happened to me irl so maybe that's why I personally find it creepy even when it's done in fiction. I once was friends with a straight girl until she brought it to my attention that she shipped me and my cousin and had based her OCs in her "yaoi stories" on me and him. She insisted it was fine because we are both gay and technically not related by blood (we were still raised as cousin and see eachother as such, so IMO it still would count as incest regardless of blood) I tried to explain to her numerous times why I found it creepy and wanted her to stop, and she'd just get mad at me and insisted it was only creepy when men did it and kept trying to convince me to date/fuck my cousin IRL and kept writing "stories" about us and claiming they were about fictional characters she made up. So that experience mixed with the fact most lesbians I've met aren't fond of straight men sexualizing them, has lead me to believe it's creepy, inappropriate, and objectifying when anyone fetishizes someone else's sexual orientation that isn't their own. Personally I also think it's slightly creepy how many gay men fetishize straight men. But I may be biased do to my experience with that old "friend" and her obsession with the idea of me fucking my cousin.
That's messed up, dude. Glad to hear she is an old friend now.
Yeah, when this happened was 5 years ago and I was 18 and she was 17, so I just hope she grew out of that before she creeped anyone else out on the level she did me. I legit couldn't see my cousin for like a year without thinking of her weird stories and getting uncomfortable.
Would it have made you feel comfortable if a gay male fetishized you and your cousin in this way? Cause I would think that it would be creepy to be a character in any kind of comic or story, without your consent, regardless of the gender or sexual orientation of the authorā¦
Yes it would have,(edit: incase it wasnt obvious, I meant it would have creeped me out even if a gay man did this, it would NOT have made me comfortable with it) but she would typically use the argument "it's only creepy when men do it to lesbians, it's impossible for a woman to creep on a man" which I strongly disagree with, and she DEFINITELY fetishized gay people full-on. So idk, while that situation would've been uncomfortable even if it was a gay guy, I still find it very creepy to fetishize someone else's sexuality, especially when their sexuality doesn't include you. It being with my cousin definitely made it worse, but I'm still not fond of the idea of ANY woman fetishizing my sexual orientation. And to make things clear, I also think it's creepy when gay guys have "straight men" fetishes.
That's just messed up. The ex-friend.
Yeah, to be fair I probably should've mentioned this happened when I was 18 and she was 17. So idk if she behaves this way or if she's grown out of it, but it was very off-putting and uncomfortable, and made me feel less comfortable around my cousin just because every time I saw him for a while I'd think of her weird "stories" and get super uncomfortable.
One more problem is these works could serve as a misinformed example to younger gays.
Ehh... The benefits are there, admittedly. These shows aren't bad. But there is an issue with having shows about gay people for an audience of mostly not gay people. These shows aren't made for us. The interests that the producers have to keep in mind with these shows becomes "what's most entertaining for a straight, female audience" with no need, really, to have any concern for what *we* want. Because why create a show for those who actually are LGBTQ when you could design a show around the larger audience and make way more money. The shows aren't bad, but I wouldn't describe the fact that the viewerbase is composed almost entirely of straight women as "beneficial," no matter how many new shows it ends up producing.
I don't want to gatekeep straight women from watching gay content. I want gay content written BY and FOR gay men and I want straight women learning we aren't just guys they can get off to.
EXACTLY. I'm fine with women who enjoy consuming gay content. HOWEVER I don't like that they have taken over the market and made it represent them and their interest more than it does actual gay men and real lgbt+ issues. And I want straight women to realize we don't just exist for them to fetishize and obsess over, and I want more people to admit this is just as objecrifying as when straight men do it to lesbians, because it is. There has been several times I've felt objectified because straight women have reduced my sexuality to their fantasy. I've even met cis women who say they want to date a gay man as if that makes any fucking sense? Like I dont exist to be some straight girls "ideal but out of reach partner" like if someone was dating them they wouldn't be GAY they'd be bi, or pan, or some other label, but a gay man would objectively NOT want to date a cishet woman.
Gay men do date and even marry straight women actually but their only reason to do so is to assimilate among straight men and gain the prestige of passing as heterosexual to society. But there's not as much that straight women get out of it considering that man doesn't actually feel attracted to them. Back when women had to be the property of their father or husband, they would marry gay men to get away from the straight men in their life and essentially be free as the gay guy would then give them all the freedom they legally can. In exchange, the gay guy passes as straight and gets the safety and security of heterosexual marriage.
Yes but I don't consider that a real "relationship" gay man CAN technically be in a "straight relationship" but as you stated, it's always either because societal pressure, or transactional in some sense. I don't consider that a real "romantic relationship" and that definitely not what the women I'm referring to wanted when they said they wanted to "date a gay man"
The straight women you are talking about do not want to "date" anyone at all. At least not emotionally. They essentially want a bestie that feels more exotic because he is gay. It's the typical tokenization that straight women put us through.
This is part of why I fucking love Bara, besides obviously the horny aspect, some stories are just relatable as fuck.
But I do feel like straight women often sexualize gay men to a certain degree and itās creepy. This includes straight women going on Grindr to lurk and be voyeurs or straight women chanting repeatedly for two gay guys to make out for their perverse pleasure. I donāt want to be sexualized by women as Iām sure most of them donāt want men to do the same.
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Who is that actor
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You only post Breaking Bad memes? I mean not judging... just... I don't get the reference?
It's the bit where he goes we are not the same
No I ment looking at their history, they ONLY post Breaking Bad reaction memes. Again not judging, its a good show I was just surprised is all
His character is gay in breaking bad, not a good role model
What do you mean? The chicken man is a great role model! He helps foreigners get jobs!
It was years and years since I saw breaking bad... I feel kinda out of the loop here :D
Gus is gay? It's been years since I watched breaking bad, but I knew I was gay back then and I thought I would've noticed if gus was gay. When do they even confirm that? Not denying it, I just don't remember him ever mentioning his sexuality or any romantic partners. But maybe I just missed it.
They killed his partner by the pool, and the wine guy in better call saul seemed to have been put in to remove doubt, gay here too, pretty sure gail played for our team too
Okay thank you. I do remember the guy getting killed by the pool but for some reason I thought they were just "buisness partners, and friends" can't believe I totally missed that context. Guess I wasn't paying as much attention when I watched that show as I thought. Thank you again for the explanation. After I made that comment I did think of the pool scene and think "wait, was that guy his actual partner" but I had already made my comment and moved on by then. Also I haven't seen any of better call Saul so I wouldn't know any context presented from thar show.
Their is not much context in better call saul either, they really want gus to be a mystery, and youāll love better call saul if you liked breaking bad at all, very well made show
I kind of disagree. A gay man and a straight woman enjoy all-male intimacy in significantly different ways. With gay men, it's aspirational. We want to be in that situation and can see ourselves in either of the men involved. Straight women do not have that same insight into the desire to be with ANOTHER man. They instead have a sort of "female gaze" for it. The men are only getting hot and heavy so SHE can get off. Or maybe she imagines inserting herself and reinforcing the "there must be a woman" heteronormative standard. It can be harmless sure but it can also teach women to see gay men as existing only for their pleasure in a dehumanizing kind of way. Just like straight men enjoy trans women and all-female sex in porn but it doesn't really translate into any respect or love for these women in real life. These women only serve as the straight guys' fantasy and so the straight guys see no other reason why they are trans or gay other than that.
While I would like to see more queer authors get notoriety, representation is representation. In all the books I have read written by straight women, the actual relationship has been portrayed in a very positive and healthy way, which is something we need more of. For those interested in a gay romance series written by a gay author, try Something Like Summer (and all the books in that series), by Jay Bell.
I totally agree. It IS beneficial and even healthy to see healthy depictions of sexual behavior. It's normal to want to see them, and it's normal to enjoy watching them. I'd even go so far as to say, for men especially, it's an absolute necessity to have such an avenue for release available.
To be quite honest I think the number of men who feel forced in to being overtly sexual as a social gesture around other men - and the number of women who hide their sexualities around other people are both somewhat equal making both groups of men and women who need that release similar in size.
That's a great point I hadn't considered. Although I've become more sure lately that women do have equally potent sexual needs, and thus I believe they equally deserve to share in such pleasures without it being a secret thing. I mean we're all people and I just wish we could be totally honest about these things.
> I mean we're all people and I just wish we could be totally honest about these things. We are on the same page friend.
I'm glad to hear it. That makes my day! Have a great weekend!
I see what youāre saying but I donā agree. I like women but I donāt want them involved in my sexual life. Iām gay and like guys. I find women to be a boner-killer in any situation that I, as a gay male, would find erotic. Stay in your own lane - I donāt interfere in my straight friends sexual activities.
Well its not much you can do about peoples fantasies and what kind of porn or smut they consume. Your boner just have to take it.
That is true but that doesnāt change my opinion on the topic.
Well they're not involved in your sexlife. And just like you finding a straight dude hot, some random straight woman can't saunter along going "stay in your lane, my vagina gets dry by you thinking that" If you find it problematic that a lot of people find dudes hot, not just you, well... thats your problem not anyone elses No one is involving themselves in your sex life. You are involving them by thinking about them thinking about the same smut...?
You are confused and make no sense. First of all, I donāt find straight guys hot - why the fuck would I fantasize about someone that could never reciprocate? Thatās your fucked up delusion. Second, between straight women lurking on Grindr to get their pussies wet as voyeurs to straight women at gay bars chanting for two guys to make out in front of them so they can get off, they are involved in gay mens sexual life. Maybe not mine personally but I have had several straight female co workers make comments about what they imagine my sex life is like. Comments they would never make to straight co workers and the type of shit that would send them to H.R. if those comments were made to them. Sorry you seem to be making an enormous issue out of this - if you look pussy, great. I donāt. Go fuck your mother (whether you are a male or female, enjoy). You are a dumb cunt - fuck off
Ok no need to be so sensitive. Sorry your feelings where hurt by other people existing. Try to calm down and not be so angry <3
Iām not. My original one sentence reply was neutral and 100% non-provocative. Your reply was an over the top rant X 1000. Letās call it like it is. Mine is an opinion. Thatās all. Iām not sending out petitions to my local congressmen. Itās an opinion. Take it as such.
My "rant" that you finding women watching gay porn is a YOU problem vs your finely stated calm reply of > "Sorry you seem to be making an enormous issue out of this - if you look pussy, great. I donāt. Go fuck your mother (whether you are a male or female, enjoy). You are a dumb cunt - fuck off" :D Sweety - just go out, touch grass - stop having a hissy fit that women watch gay porn. Just calm down and don't be so upset all the time
Aside from the fact that your command of the English language is poor and I highly suspect you are not American, you need to just shut the fuck up. As I said. My original reply was ONE sentence - no provocative - and you got your pussy wet. Iām positive you arenāt American and donāt quite get it. Stay in your lane of techie troubleshooting and playing dungeons and dragons. That may be your escape to reality - finding sex or love with some mythical creature. Iām 100% positive you have never been laid in your life and never will be. Again, please fuck off.
Irrelevant. Do you honestly think lesbians find it a turn on that straight guys are fantasizing over them? Get real, dude. On one hand, it is what it is but still, I donāt get off having women watching me fuck. Many years ago, I used to work as a graphic designer for a gay porn studio in L.A. I never worked on set, but several of the actors talked about a female porn director at that time that they found to be a buzz kill simply b/c she was female. I get that. Oh, BTW, the dude who posted this is Swedish. Totally different take on the topic. Just an FYI
No? I said its impossible for you, me or anyone to dictate the fantasies of others. Say you are watching a photo of two men having sex. In another country somewhere else - a woman is doing the same thing. It has no bearing on your enjoyment of that photo. To get weirded out that other people have fantasies similar to your own is problematic in comparison. No one is talking about having women come to you and watch you have sex? Rather that if you make a porno about two men having sex, getting grossed out if one of the people buying it is a woman is a strange take. > Oh, BTW, the dude who posted this is Swedish. Totally different take on the topic. What? Sry I think you need to explain what you're replying to here because it doesn't make sense
No - as I said, there used to be a semi- high profile female director of gay porn. Many of the gay actors felt as if she dampened the sexual mood on set. Most of them didnāt dislike her as a person but that was just the reality. Many gay guys feel that way just as many lesbians donāt like straight guys ogling them. How the fuck is that difficult to understand? Pretty basic. And yes - you are European, no? Reddit was founded my an American man from my alma mater - Tufts - and the vast majority of people on Reddit are Americans and the topics are U.S.- centric. Not a dis - but a fact. Your take on things is skewed and not on point with what most Americans think. Word.
No, I don't feel that way at all. Yaoi is the first place I saw mlm portrayed as something beautiful and not ugly or shameful. I will always have a place in my heart for it and I have no problem with it being consumed by women too.
Oh yeah? You think yaoi is beautiful? Google boku no pico and Iām sure youāll change your mind. Wait shit! That was made by a man! Fuck! I contradicted my own argument about women and the gay community!
Every genre has works that promote shitty stuff, and BNP is a shotacon (not yaoi) made for a male audience
Wait what? I thought it was just some really fucked up thing a guy made and unleashed it upon the world like a plague for all.
well for every boku no pico thereās a yuri on ice which is a very lovely gay love story and is *gasp* created by a woman
Nahā¦ I was just stating how weird things are. The sexualizing of gay guys, however Iām not googling what you just said because I donāt trust anime stuffā¦ due to reasons.
Without women, gay media would be a fraction of what it is. Sure there are a few weirdos out there, but I view "fujoshi" as a positive overall.
Without womenā¦ gay men wouldnāt existā¦
Irrelevant
I mean they do it in a tamer way than men sexualize lesbians . That soft style that women do has a little tension but they're clearly not targeted for most gay people.
I guess thatās trueā¦ But I still find it weird! I asked my friends on this on our discord server and one of them is a lesbian and they also agree itās kinda fucked up! And I just learned what BL is today and now I kinda want to read one made by a gay dude! Because only a gay dude would know the ins and outs of a typical gay relationship!
Relationships are relationships, there is no super sekrit special way to write gay relationships as a gay man than as a woman - people have the same goals - to be loved, to have companionship, to be a family - smut is smut. You're really overthinking this a lot.
Most gay manga made my men falls under the bara category and a lot of it is 90% hardcore fucking with a flimsy setup to make it happen lol. I can DM you some recommendations or sites if you want for explicit or non-explicit gay comics.
Oh hell yeah! Don't hold out! But for real, I'm always down for gay comics, NSFW or SFW r dope
What is bara? Keep in mind Iām not Japaneseā¦ Iām a foreign Irish man who grew up in Michigan, I donāt know Japanese except āraw fishā and kanichiwaw which is hello apparently. Talk to me as if Iām a five year old who rambles alot.
Bara (short for barazoku) is a category of gay art and comics depicting masculine, muscular, chubby, etc. men. It's not the pretty boys you see in most yaoi/BL. It's also typically drawn by and for men.
Okayā¦ just looked it up because I was worried I would get some weird type of pornā¦ now I know better because of you! And yep thatās most gay men I have seen, which I find strange since Iām just a smol little gremlin.
There is definitely a lot of weird, extreme bara, but there are also some really sweet stories. The vast majority of it is just straight up porn though, and while I like that sometimes, I wish there were more story driven bara comics.
I agree I love a porno with a story, and why does someone order a pizza without money? Iāll never understand thisā¦
I was browsing anime streaming sites clicking on the dumbest sounding names once and I found this anime called Super Lovers. The first episode was adorable, so I started reading the manga. It was the wildest manga i've ever read in my life, it is crazier than Killing Stalking. Both BL genre. These books always seem to be written by women, I was so surprised! I am glad they aren't trying to pass it off as being for lgbt people really, it seems that they make it obvious their target audience is women.
No. Other people's fetishes and fantasies are none of my business. So what if some women idealize gay relationships and get off to gay porn?
I really don't understand it, and it can be read as another form of objectification. I know that yaoi has had some criticism from gay men because of that and some have started to use the term "geicomi" for works about gay men created by queer artists. I guess at this point, I'm not super offended by it and some of my favorite stories about gay men were written by women. I think we all get a little too uppity over sex and nudity as a society.
Yaoi is literally just the same old heterosexual love stories except the woman is replaced by a twink. Fuck that shit
Might be worth mentioning that it's not necessarily 'heterosexual' as much as it was the gay relationship dynamic during the Edo period, so it's definitely rooted in authentic Japanese culture. Now, does that mean it's accurate to modern-day gay experiences, and that it should remain the primary depiction of gay male relationship? No. But it's wrong to call it 'heterosexual' when a focus on an older/younger, top/bottom dynamic and exclusively anal sex is in fact how generations of Japanese gay and bi men experienced sexuality.
Pedantry.
No, history.
Agreed, many people are prudes but Iām just saying itās weird thatās allā¦ Like would any self respecting lesbian let a straight guy watch her having sex? Nah thatās like being a cuck but to a whole new level man. Iām taking it to the extreme here, thatās the most extreme example I can think of because I like to think in extremes.
I agree, it is a bit of a double standard, but it's not exactly 1:1 because of how women have historically been treated compared to men, even gay men in certain times and societies. I think that, in addition to the fact lesbian objectification for straight men is more mainstream than gay men objectification for women, is why we see more people taking issue with it in that context.
I don't care at all. If they like it, all the good for them.
Nope, it doesnāt bother me at all. I donāt really see how itās different to gay guys fantasising about straight guys tbh.
Butā¦ I never fantasize about straight guys because I always have super realistic fantasies. I get rejected alot in my fantasies more than real lifeā¦ itās almost as if reality is a fantasy and fantasy is realityā¦
Not me getting turned on by heteroflexible vampires written by Anne Rice
I wouldnāt judge. My best friend is a āwomanā who writes M/M romance because her life circumstances make it impossible to transition and she DEFINITELY should have been born a man. She feels like a gay man so Iām likeāyou do you
Ahhā¦ what do you mean āwomenā? Isnāt it a trans man? I know someone whoās transitioning and they also think itās kinda fucked up! Maybe itās just a regional thing and thatās why this topic is controversial.
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Thatās like saying men shouldnāt write stories or comics with a lead woman character because he isnāt a womanā¦ or an able bodied person shouldnāt write a handicapped character. Adult oriented books do tend to have some sexual (or a lot, depending on the author and type of romance) aspects. If the author is a good author, they probably did some research and ask questions to make it as ārealisticā as possible. That why thereās a huge joke about some authors search engines being problematic when they are researching for a murder mystery novel š¬ If there was a stipulation that an author had to write only about what they have personally experienced, then we wouldnāt have a lot of books, comics, movies, or tv showsā¦ We have never had a zombie apocalypse, Iām pretty sure that we donāt have a dystopian lifestyle where the US was entirely destroyed, and I believe that the Sanderson sisters didnāt come back from the deadā¦ twiceā¦ and if you want a story about a specific person, from that personās perspective, you should read autobiographies.
Ahh. Well for a murder mystery I know exactly how to get in the mind of a murderer, because I know a few of them, they are nice people, surprisingly.
Yes. It creeps me out. I dont read straight female authors who write gay fiction. Those books are not written for us. They are written for straight females. I read gay male authors only. Because thats my tribe. I would rather my money went to them.
What books are there written by gay men? Because technically they need the money more since less people read there stuff right? Iām thinking about it equity wise yknow?
Ummmā¦ no. Thats incorrect. You canāt say every last one of them is in that same position. Thatās called broad-brushing and its the opposite of equity because you are generalizing. Anyhoo, here are 20ish gay male authors. Check them out: ā¢ Federico GarcĆa Lorca ā¢ Larry Kramer ā¢ Jackie Curtis ā¢ Lou Sullivan ā¢ Allen Ginsberg ā¢ Jean Genet ā¢ Jiraiya ā¢ Marshall Thornton ā¢ Alan Hollinghurst ā¢ Loren A. Olson ā¢ Matthew Clark Davison ā¢ Radclyffe Hall ā¢ Luis NegrĆ³n ā¢ Armistead Maupin ā¢ Edmund White ā¢ Rupert Smith ā¢ J. C. Price ā¢ Rob Byrnes ā¢ Michael Nava ā¢ Greg Herren ā¢ Neil S. Plakcy
20 gale male authors among hundreds of thousands of womenā¦ damn big pond small fish. But I get what youāre saying about generalizing, I typically tend to think of life in patterns, thatās why I always look at things in extremes, my therapist says itās something about Idk PTSD bullshit or somethingā¦ I remember her saying itās a defensive thing. Calling it a snake and stick or whatever. Sorry for rambling Iām really fucking tired and sorry for swearing I tend to get like that when Iām stressed because I have a quiz coming up and I need to study more.
O there are thousands moreā¦ just go look. Non apologies. Weāre just talking here. Go get some sleep before you fall down. 
Also hold onā¦ Federico GarcĆa was in the Spanish civil war? And the Francois killed him? Damnā¦ may he rest in peaceā¦ Viva la FAI!
Thats correct! 
I wonder how many people who say "it's harmless" would say the same about straight men sexualizing lesbians... whenever that topic comes up I notice people JUMP to talk about how horrible and objectifying it is to lesbians. Yet here you brought up the double standard of it and everyone jumps to defend women who fetishize and objectify gay men. I hate this double standard, and I think it's creepy and wrong. I think it's just as wrong and creepy for women to fetishize gay men as it is for men to fetishize lesbians. And I think to say it's fine for straight women but not straight men plays into a sexist double-standard. It's objectifying and creepy either way and as a gay man I dont feel represented or comfortable at all when straight women fetishize me and my sexual orientation. I've literally had a women start shipping me with my cousin just because we are both gay and "not related by blood so it's fine" when she refused to admit it was creepy or that what she was doing was the same thing straight men do to lesbians, she got mad at me and said it wasn't bad when women do it, so I had to cut her out of my life because she kept bringing up how she wanted me to fuck my cousin. It's fucking creepy and I don't want women fetishizing me. Especially not for my orientation which I'm ALREADY oppressed for.
Most women who write gay romance don't fetishise or objectify gay men in the same way straight guys do to lesbians. When men write a lesbian love story, 99% of the time it is fetish porn. This isn't the same for women writing gay stories like at all. While there are unfortunately plenty of women who actually fetishise gay relationships, it is FAR from the level of how straight guys fetishise lesbians. Especially since for lesbians it can be dangerous due to violence from straight guys. Women writing gay romance is not fetishising or objectification. It is completely harmless and without women the gay romance genre would barely exist. Unless a woman is fetishising gay men in real life it is not a problem.
I consider that take to be sexist and unfair. I don't think it's fair to say it's fine for one gender to do something but wrong and objectifying for the other to do the exact same thing. I believe it's either wrong or isn't, regardless of sex or gender.
Ah! Another like minded person! Why is it so controversial to say itās weird for women to sexualize gay men?
I agree with OP, I genuinely dont get why it's controversial to find this creepy and admit that its just as bad when cishet women fetishize queer people as it is when cishet men do. Sexist double standards suck no matter which way they go.
Doesnāt bother me ā except that actual gay authors are now getting lost in the deluge of female written gay fantasies. Good authors should be able to tell a gay romance honestly but very few female authors have shown the insight to understand the very different dynamics and sex in gay relationships. Annie Proulx is one of the few to really get into a gay manās head. Many contemporary gay romances could have a women substituted into the story and it would make absolutely no difference (which doesnāt make it a bad story ā just one for a different audience). Gay men telling stories for other men are having trouble breaking through now.
A lot of male BL authors like to depict men as very hairy or extremely muscle-bound, and well if my preferences in men fall more towards to pretty men or twinks then the stories of female authors I shall read. In all honesty though, the only time when I have a problem with women sexualizing gay relationships is when they start carrying their fantasies over into real life and start impacting the lives of others. It's just a step up from women trying to pair up two gays they know.
i think saying its gross is an overreaction but i do think its a little weird
No, I am not.
No
Nope. I think itās cool.
Cool how? Iām just struggling to understand yāalls side of this, Iām trying to.
Theyāre women. They like men and like seeing men with other men. Look, itās not a bad thing that women fantasize about men in a physical and emotional way. I read a lot of trash gay romance novels. A lot. Yeah, the majority of them are written by women, but so what?
Thatās fine but itās kind of a turn off. There are some leather bars that still have back rooms where guys get down and dirty and itās a boner killer to have women lurking at the entrance of the room, watching guys have sex. Or, to have women lurking on Grindr trying to flirt with guys. Fuck - Iām a gay male for a reason - I like dudes and donāt want women fucking in my sex life!! Thatās it.
As a gay trans guy... I think the assumption that any given person who likes gay romance comics is a (particularly straight) woman is very questionable. I was always drawn to gay male fiction, and I had no idea why. I was uncomfortable with the gender roles in M/F fiction, F/F just didn't really interest me, I was grossed out by sexual depictions of women in general, and I really, *really* enjoyed gay male relationships. I had no idea why. But I longed to have something like that. I was never able to date in real life, my dysphoria was just too strong (even though I had no idea that it was dysphoria at the time), and gay fiction offered me what I couldn't have because I was doomed to be a woman. Well, turns out I'm not a woman, I'm a gay guy. Suddenly my life makes sense. I also know *other* people who would've fallen into the 'woman obsessed with BL' stereotype (not fetishizing real-life gay men, but only reading BL and preferring it over every other type of relationship) who later turned out to be non-binary or trans men, too. Not everyone has the luxury to be out, either. Not everyone has realized themselves yet. Now, *are* there plenty of women who enjoy gay fiction? Yes, sure. They don't all do it in a fetishizing way though - it's perfectly possible to simply enjoy relationship dynamics outside of one's orientation. And I'm just saying, but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if a significant percentage of 'women obsessed with BL' actually aren't women at all.
I looked at womans gay BLā¦ I have to say that gender role thing is kinda bullshit because you have basically a man as a woman in the books. Pretty much they believe there canāt be two guys in a relationship who act likeā¦ well guys!
"Guys" aren't a monolith, and though I certainly wish for more diversity in BL, the dynamics in the way relationships in BL are portrayed actually have roots in gay male culture of the Edo period. Do I *enjoy* reading those dynamics? No, not really, but my opinions are also informed by my culture. I don't relate to 'bara' comics with a bunch of muscly, hyper-masculine sex-obsessed men either, and those *are* written mostly by gay men.
i think itās good in a way, most mlm media comes from women, but also seeing how straight women (who donāt make gay media) can be OBSESSED with it, makes me quite uncomfortable
Yes thatās what Iām talking about.
It can be weird and obsessive at times but it is mostly harmless infatuation. I would say as an avid reader and writer, mlm stories written by women are very basic with predictable archetypes (fem and masc/ sub and dom/ power play, etc.) and even the way sex goes down is the same way that straight sex is perceived. However, I donāt support putting a cap or to gatekeep a form of artistic discord. I have written cis and hetero characters before, it would be a double standard to believe that I should and could produce/consume media that are about an identity different from mine.
Idc positive representation is still positive
So being seen only as a thing for sex is positive? Because thatās the reason why I left my last ex.
you said romance not erotic I was under the impression that you were talking about romantic Cuz no no itās not
Shit I did. Well whatever. Guess you are right anywaysā¦ even if I may not like it, youāre technically right.
anyway I like ur pfp ^ w ^
Thank you! I donāt really interact with the furry fandom much anymore because of how political it becameā¦
Thatās twitter for ya
Yes, incredibly weird to me. I also think straight dudes who are into lesbians are weird, I pride myself in being consistent.
Finallyā¦ a like minded person.
Fantasizing about it, go for it. Write a book about it, yes. What I don't like are straight women that come to gay places hoping for a bit of a titillating show when guys there kiss.
Yes! But if you read their so-called "gay romance", it's actually "penis-envy" romance. It's extremely stereotypical. One man is usually hyper-masculine, often bisexual or doubtful about his sexuality or he is straight but having sex with a man is a kind of kink. He always remains sexually available to women. Of course he's the top. The other is highly feminine, often presented with long flowing hair, though confident of his gay sexuality. He's a bottom. He's actually the straight female author's fantasy identity. So they don't present gay relationships at all. They present straight relationships where the woman has a penis. The sad thing about this is the authors actually either straight out lie about their gender or have a male sounding pseudonym. What's the harm in it? What if young gay tens read this shlt and think that is how sexual relations between men really are? They should at least be honest about themselves.
My issue with their comics is usually more to do with the fact that the way they draw the men is very androgynous. I don't mind gay relationships being sexualized, but I don't like the implication that it only makes sense to straight people if one guy is clearly the submissive and they act more fem. I feel more grossed out and find it creepier when having children is presented as a given and that being gay is more of an obstacle to that goal than having children is an obstacle to the goal of being your most authentic self. The projected priorities is what creeps me out, I guess.
Feel how you feel, but I donāt really care. Str men sexualised lesbians and thats pretty much been normalised.
āIf you are into men whats hotter than two going at itā is how my female friends alway put it, i agree but groups are hot too
It's fiction. It's fantasy. These are playgrounds for people's erotic imaginations. I think if the writers of these comics actually find out what happens in real life gay relationships, they would probably be completely grossed out by it. Lol.
Like what? That sometimes we like to lick a assholes? And we are basically savages in bed, hehe me and boyfriend always come out of the bedroom looking like we were attacked by wild animals due to us biting each other.
Ha ha ha ha exactly!
At first I find it weird, but those gay romance are actually catered for straight women who fantasize that guys can be emotional too. And they self insert as the submissive feminine bottom. Most women are probably not into anal.
Straight women fetishize us as much or even more than straight men fetishize lesbians. For example the biggest consumers of boy love (BL/Yaoi) serieses and mangas are women.
Why are you being downvoted for telling the truth?
I have no clue!! There are women in this subreddit I suppose?
No wonder my post is so controversialā¦
In terms of abstract fantasy it's fine. In terms of say women coming to gay bars and sexually harassing gay guys in their safe space thats unacceptable. I think that women are, on average, slightly better at rationalising porn as an abstract fantasy then men are so I don't think that women coming into gay spaces and harrasing men is caused by fantasy literature.
Not at all
I find it a little odd, but then I donāt expect much from humanity anymore š¤£
Trueā¦ whatās up with humanity now? We are so weirdā¦
I think whatās the issue is that people assume you canāt like romance if it isnāt a reflection of your own sexuality. If we only watched and enjoyed what we could relate to then we wouldnāt watch a lot of tv. Maybe Iām over simplifying this, but it seems that simple to me. It only becomes a problem when people sexualize it in real life. Thatās harmful.
Nope. Doesnāt bother me. Artistic freedom
Nah not at all. Without women, gay romance would barely exist. Its the same thing with reading straight romance despite being gay, me personally i read a lot of straight romance which isn't and shouldn't be considered weird. Same thing with women writing gay romance. It only becomes a problem when they start sexualising real life gay men.
It turns out that most viewers of gay male porn are also women. But, to me, that makes me smile. It's more proof that god loves us gay people. And wants us to be happy. Also, a gay relationship, I mean isn't that already denoting sexuality? Aren't most gay relationships already sexualized? Frankly I never held with all this nonsense about how "porn" is harmful because of "objectifying" women or men. Don't get me wrong, it sure as hell does objectify them, and that's part of why it's fun to watch. All the emotional and psychological and other crap is left out, it's just sex and two (or more) people enjoying their physical prowess and excitement together. I'd even argue most "porno" isn't really pornographic - in my book, it's not obscene to depict lovemaking between two (or more) people, why should it be? As long as it's not showing anyone getting hurt, and everyone is into it -- what is prurient about that? We're sexual beings, we humans. We're animals like other animals in the animal kingdom. Why cant we leave all the judgments on the stable floor and just horse around and enjoy it? We are beautiful people. Let's not make it obscene to be human.
Enjoy having a gaggle a straight women hover over you and your partner as you fuck. I have lost count of the number straight women who have told me they want to watch me and my boyfriend have sex. I find it repulsive and every time I think about it, I get Sick. No offense to women but stay the fuck out of my sex life. They are obsessed! Maybe b/c me and my boyfriend are considered to be ā straight actingā whatever that means but fuckā¦no!
Those women did a lot to normalize gay relationships - especially in media and film. The ones who do sexualize and objectify men are usually other men. Stop persecuting or allies, we depend on them.
Not at all, at least for me with my female friends. I was hanging out with a friend last week and I told her a story about how I had a crush on a classmate. She believed it was cute. We are on summer holidays so I didnāt see him in a monthā¦ That day coincidentaly we see him on a square, my friend told me he couldnāt stop looking at me, now she āshipā us and says itās so cute if both of us were together.
I have no problem with non men enjoying or creating mlm content, I just wish it didnāt feel like it was MOSTLY non men. It feels like every time a new gay book gets popular (RW&RB, heartstopper, etc), itās written by someone who isnāt a gay man.
Nope. Donāt care.
I find it funny, but I think itās just sexualized because itās double dick.
Ehhhā¦ I donāt find sex that funny unless I crack a joke or I boop my partner on his nose with my penis.
I meant I found it funny that women are sexualizing gay couples, it happened to me once it was hilarious.
That doesnāt sound funny that sounds like harassmentā¦
Weāre two different people with different opinions I found it funny you donāt, weāll leave it at that.
Glad we can agree to disagree and be civil about it.
Agreed
No, dick is the common denominator.
I have only hatred, but not sexualization in my direction
Hatred towards me or to women who sexualize gay men?
hate from women who don't sexualize it at all
The only way I feel right now is horny Iām craving a big cock to ride and I am in need of feeling some hot cum deep in me, and the sexy feeling of it dripping down my ass and thighs, I like watching it in the mirror while I have my tiny pink panties fishnet stocking.
No, we guys sexualize lesbians. It's only fair. I think it's the desire of getting something we know we can't get? Who knows haha
Back a million years ago, long before Kindle Unlimited, when you had to purchase each of your Amazon books, 90 out of the 100 Bestsellers in Gay Romance were written by male authors. After Kindle Unlimited, where anyone can self-publish and download for free, 95 out of 100 are written by female authors. The difference is distinct. The female authors writing fifteen years ago like Charlie Richards, Garrett Leigh, Mary Calmes, RJ Scott, and Goddess bless her soul, Sandrine Gasq-Dion, wrote from a gay male perspective. The sex is raw, itās gritty, and itās real. But so many of the new authors are clearly writing for a female audience. Case in point, MPREG. It didnāt really exist in gay literature prior to KU, now Amazon is littered with it. Seriously, how many gay men want hot flashes, periods and pregnancy? š¤®
Some of us like our sex slow and sensual. I mean, you usually get to a point where you go full on animal, but I like to work up to it slow. Iād rather have sex last longer than 5 min.
But thatās the thing about the authors I mentioned, theyāre not the trashy porn shop paperback books of slam-bam fiction, theyāre women more than capable of writing male erotica as the best of gay male authors. You just donāt feel slathered in butter on pillows of velvet. š„°
Perfecto!
Waitā¦ wtf? Who would want a period? I think thatās the best part of being a gay man, I understand men all the time since I am one, and pregnancies? Hell no, I hate kids, every time a kid walks towards me I run away in fear. So I think being gay is a blessing.