T O P
Mogamett

"What is a human? A miserable little pile of feats".


Supacat9932

But enough talk... have at you!


SurprisedCabbage

>have at you! ~~Gazuntite~~ Gesundheit


MauPow

r/BoneAppleTea


Lessandero

Finally a worthy candidate for that sub


abcd_z

It's actually gesundheit, German for "good health".


Sekkenren

Wild ~~shrieks~~ freaks!


Zaranthan

*gets hit by glass, explodes into shower of red pixels* lol you died, lol lol you died


Lessandero

Damn giant vampires and their gigantic glasses.


wizardofyz

There is immense wealth in feet...er...feat.


BreadDziedzic

My boy Diogenes would like to show you a chicken.


Sky_Leviathan

No thats my homebrew race the people of the foot They look like giant human faced hedgehogs but with feet instead of spines


SpecstacularSC

[*"What is a MAN?! -MAN?! -MAN?! A miserable little- A pile of SECRETS! E-SECRETS!"*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-ZqSlrCVcE)


Frenetic_Platypus

What, so I can't get 2 feats at level 1?


garaks_tailor

What about 2nd first feat?


Discount_Sunglasses

I don't think he *knows* about 2^nd 1st feat, Pip.


YoutuberCameronBallZ

What a ripoff 2 feats would be great /s


Seductive_Pineapple

Strichaven Backgrounds give you a free feat at LVL 1. With Custom Origin or Var. Human that 2 Feats at LVL 1 RAW


RoyHarper88

Quick, everyone enroll in magic school!


cookiedough320

Well yeah but that requires the Strixhaven backgrounds to be used in the first place, in which everyone is gonna have a feat then.


Seductive_Pineapple

Ok but with a feat from Race and Background. And a feat at LVL 1 free, that’s a total of 3 feats


Jindo5

No need for the /s, that ***would*** be great!


ClericDude

>2 feats would be great /s *Laughs in sentinel+polarm master*


WorldEaterKirby

Oh no, a reaction to stop one enemy! Whatever shall I do?? Anyway, the bandits using crossbows aim at the wizard.


ClericDude

> Oh no, a reaction to stop one enemy! Whatever shall I do?? Anyway, the bandits using crossbows aim at the wizard. I didn’t say it was unstoppable. Its just an example of a powerful/fun build that requires two feats to make work.


DerpyDaDulfin

It's more about the 2 feat humans eclipsing all other races. 2 Feat Variant human instantly becomes the best race in the game.


Zibani

OP never said Custom lineage was banned. You still have a chance.


miraclequip

Only if your character is bipedal.


Altar_Quest_Fan

I started out with two *feets* at level one, your DM ripped you off…


wIDtie

That's how I roll: 29pts point-buy and a free half-feat (those with +1 to an ability score).


Lorechaser1

I run gestalt, ability scores add up to 80 before racial modifiers, feat at level 1, *and V. Human* is allowed.


gruthunder

What is gestalt? I got confused and thought I was in [r/Stellaris](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stellaris/) for a second.


Lorechaser1

You level TWO Classes every level. It makes characters incredibly interesting, name a character from fiction-I guarantee they are a gestalt character rather than being shoehorned into an archetype


Nintendogma

>name a character from fiction-I guarantee they are a gestalt character rather than being shoehorned into an archetype Frodo Baggins. That dude is a level 1 rogue in the beginning, and a level 2 rogue with lots of magic items by the end.


Lazie_Titan

Level 1 rogue. Level 2 Bagginses.


StayPuffGoomba

We has banned the Bagginses from our games. We hates them!


Shadow_Jedi

Stupid fat grognards, they ruins it!


MoarVespenegas

Frodo doesn't even have player levels. Guy is just an NPC with a ridiculous WIS save.


KupoMcMog

gandalf, *who's basically a god*, bestowed upon Frodo Legendary Resistances. Which he used a shitload, and every day they slept, he got to roll to reset them...and he's a hobbit w/ halfling luck, so he got them back all the time. It's why like only twice did he get fucked up, BOTH times was because he hadn't slept. Weathertop and Shelob. Heck w/ Shelob he was running on like 3 points of exhaustion anyways, he was fucked from the beginning. Luckily his Paladin buddy Samwise the Brave was able to save his ass.


MoarVespenegas

I don't know, it sounds to me like he was nailing all his Wis saves for the ring but tanking every other one. Con, for the multiple stabbings. Int for his general plan to get into Mordor. Chr when Golum was turning him against Sam.


Wyldfire2112

>gandalf, who's basically a god, bestowed upon Frodo Legendary Resistances. One weak-ass god, then. In terms of his actual showings he's a midlevel wizard at most. Can't even solo a CR-19 monster.


Duck-Lord-of-Colours

He's banned from using his powers properly wotking against Sauron because his bosses are afraid of when they used divine power to beat Sauron's boss and sunk half a continent. The one time he was allowed was fighting the balrog, which is a corrupted deity and he did win after fighting for ages, he just died a little later Lotr lore is very fun


Cyynric

Bilbo's a level 1 Baggins and a Level 1 Took at the beginning of The Hobbit.


TimeBlossom

I dunno, fast-talking Smeagol and Smaug and regaling people with tales of his adventures in his old age seems pretty bard-y to me.


DumbAndNumb

That's Bilbo though...


TimeBlossom

I'm blind. But tbh Frodo was just Sam's hireling.


DumbAndNumb

Haha, fair enough. Just a guy you bring with to carry the cursed object for you


Sagemachine

One character class yes, but what about second character class?


_Bl4ze

Rogues can grab expertise in persuasion too too.


DonQuixoteDesciple

*tu-tu


worrymon

Desmond?


gruthunder

That is a lot of features and spells though. Any game slowdown in your experience from players sorting through features or spells?


stumblewiggins

It really only works with experienced DM and parties, because yea otherwise it's slow AF and hard to run


Generic_gen

Gesalt pathfinder & 3.5 are brutal for new dms. Inexperienced dm wanted to add path of war and battlesmith so I had d12 hit dice and insane armor class, touch armor class, and cmd. While also maintaining crowd control. Insane shenanigans can happen but 5e is only weird after level 11 for Gesalt.


OriginLostBorn

Also, there aren’t that many spells and features, as things just take the better of the two if something overlaps, like gaining spell slots, hp, or similar features like unarmored defense. Between the barbarians and monks as well as sorcerers draconic armor, you can pick the one that gives the highest AC


[deleted]

[удалено]


OriginLostBorn

I mean, there’s that, or the better bullshit of being a normal human so you get both a free feat and five extra stat points. It’s slightly less broken than giving someone who could be an arcane domain cleric the ability to use metamagic and pact options


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Capnris

Absolutely agreed on 3.5 gestalt. Tried it once, made an evil Paladin/Sorcerer working for Mephistopheles with a wizard/rogue partner. Game never made it past the second session because we never made it past the first combat. DM figured we'd do the quiet sneaky corrupt the locals path, instead we burnt the starting town to the ground with nigh-impunity.


Lorechaser1

Very little, but I won't say it never happens, however most players simplify themselves to the point of their own understanding. People who can't handle making a wizard-mystic for sake of example probably will just be a fighter-rogue, or what have you. 5e is an incredibly simple game compared to most the games out there.


ChampionshipDirect46

Honestly I would be more worried about them just being stupidly strong. Imagine a 20th level fighter/wizard hold personing a creature, action surging, and taking 4 attacks that are all guaranteed crits as long as they connect, which at 20th lvl with them paralyzed shouldn't be an issue lol. And I'm sure theres WAY more broken things I could think of, this was just the first thing I thought of.


TalVerd

Sorc instead of wiz, quickened spell to hold person/monster then 8 attacks with action surge (samurai fighter for 1 more attack)


Kujo-Jotaro2020

Champion fighter and Zealot barbarian make you literally unkillable.


Mturja

I don’t know why Champion was necessary for this, Survivor doesn’t work when you are at 0 HP (which you are when you are a Zealot Barbarian that is using Rage Beyond Death). Any Fighter subclass would work here to give you higher damage output or better survivability unless you really want that expanded Crit range.


JValentine95

Action economy is really the only true limit for power in a gestalt game. If either side of the gestalt build has 9th level spells you’re already insanely strong. Concentration is also still a factor


ReynAetherwindt

Considering that weapon damage barely scales up at all with level while HP skyrockets in comparison, that's really not unreasonable.


_Bl4ze

Well, you're level 20 in that scenario. That strat will absolutely *demolish* a CR 1/8 Bandit, but if you're fighting a level-appropriate threat they've likely got things like Legendary resistances, and PB +7 to their Wis saves, high AC, and not being Humanoid so you have to cast Hold *Monster* instead burning a 5th level slot which is a lot valuable. Sure, this would work *sometimes*, but it's not a great go-to strategy.


ChampionshipDirect46

Like I said, I came up with it in about .2 seconds. Give me a break lol.


ReynAetherwindt

It's really, *really* not. In 5e, basically all your meaningful choices for character builds are done at level 3. Spend about a month at each level and it's agonizing waiting for that next feature to come.


UneLectureDuParfum

I try to level my players every other session for the first 8ish levels. So, you are wrong, you level up once every OTHER month, since someone almost always cancels and you only play once a month.


rtakehara

as far as I know, and since it doesn't have official rules for 5e, you just get the best of each class. So a fighter/mage gets the fighter's hit die, weapon/armor proficiencies and a fighting style, and spellcasting from the wizard, and pick 2 skills and 2 saving trows from both fighter and wizard available options. But leaves out arcane recovery and second wind. In the end, you will have roughtly the same ammount of resources as any class of the same level, but very optimized.


Monkeyman7777777

Players knowing spells?! Hah! My players learn new spells as they cast them!


Rowenstin

The opposite happens to me. Name a character from fiction (as long it's not D&D derived) and I guarantee is some multiclass combination of fighter, rogue or sorcerer. Mainly because most classes carry a lot of fluff baggage, and how many of them are spellcasters.


wIDtie

I share this opinion. Those are usually multiclass. Gestalt for me is just an OP multiclass where people have no patience to wait for the right moment to make the choice to multiclass. As RPGs, for me, are about player choices it feels that multiclassing is better than Gestalt. But hey, that's for me. If their table enjoy OP characters and the DM can provide a challenging game with meaningful choices for them despite that, that's cool.


rtakehara

yeah but what if you multiclass your gestalt character into another gestalt?


Wyldfire2112

I know Doom Guy is definitely a Zealot Barbarian + Champion Fighter.


Holyvigil

Charlie.


DefTheOcelot

Holy shit that would be I love it actually.


Lazie_Titan

I've always wanted to try it. Alas, finding people playing it is harder than it looks.


Alex_the_dragonborn

Me too.. I'm in a westmarch gestalt discord server, but I have a few characters I'm itching to play in gestalt that would go a lot better in a regular campaign and not a westmarch.


moon_family

Why limit the choice to the half-feats?


wIDtie

A few reasons. Firstly, math, with a 15 maximum from point-buy, +2 from race/lineage, a +1 will quickly get them a 18 on first level. Secondly, the abilities of those feats tend to be less impactful on a character build, and usually add narrative flavor, and as I always start at level 1 my campaigns that gives them time to develop their major feat choices as the game develops and they feel their characters. Lastly, another house rule I use: instead of +2 or feat, my players get a +1 and a feat as ASI, as such, forcing the first (free) feat to be a half-feat make them still have to make meaningful choices to get that "full"-feat like War Caster, Sentinel, Lucky... they are forfeiting the +2 for a +1 (they can still get +2 if they take another half-feat) and as I allow many feats from UA and stuff, they kinda never run out of half-feats. But that is how I run and what work for my tables as we like to play. Many DM will elect different set of house rules as it better fit their style.


moon_family

Thanks. I do point-buy with a choice of any feat awarded at first level-up. I'd actually considered the opposite instead, only allowing full feats, because my thought was just keeping the numbers below 18 so the characters still had room to grow numerically. I hadn't thought about changing how ASI works otherwise like in your other house rule.


wIDtie

You are welcome. I really like to challenge my players when it comes to mechanics but in other hand I am really into their in-promptu out-of-the-box solutions. So I rather they start the game a bit better on the first stages (lvl 1-3) where the game can be really hard with low AC, low HP. That allow them to really diversify and become characters with a wilder array of skills/abilities without need to focusing into what they are supposed to be good first. My perception on regular games (starting with 16-17 main score), is that the first two ASI goes for the primary ability score, so they usually start to get flavor (feats) to their character close to level 12. Which make them focus on optimal combat feats and eventually never taking that cool feat they wanted for flavor. As they start with a cool half-feat for flavor, and get a feat every ASI, a lot of cool/flavourful feat comes in game as they will get those for the +1 half-feat (to complete the +2 for their primary stat first, and eventually the secondary). And well they just want to round a odd stat, they get a full fledged feat which brings a lot for the game.


blackrose4242

Yes, but what about second free feature?


ndeange

I don’t he he knows about second free feature, pip.


rtakehara

The Age of Men is over.


ndeange

The time of literally any other race, has come.


blackrose4242

Free feature’s back on the menu, boys!


rtakehara

just don't tell the elf


DerpyDaDulfin

I give my players a free** multiclass. Super fun.


blackrose4242

Like a whole free level in a separate class? Barbarian War Cleric is what I would whip up. Some of those 1st level spells carry through in most encounters, if you can keep your concentration (outside of Rage).


DerpyDaDulfin

At level 5, I give them a Vestige that grants them 3 levels in one class *other* than their current class. This bonus class does not contribute to proficiency bonus, hit dice, hit points, spell level (only if you already have the spellcasting feature) or saving throw proficiencies. It follows all other multiclassing rules, granting all the passives available at level 3.


blackrose4242

Siiiiiiiiiiick that means I get my SPIRITUAL WEAPON TOO!!! I gotta talk to my DM.


DerpyDaDulfin

I will say, combat is more swingy with this system, and thus it can be difficult to balance encounters as a DM until you get the hang of it. Still, been running it this way for 4 years now and my players seem to enjoy it. Edit: I'd also advise not to make a character build around not 1 but 2 DM caviats. Allowing barbarians to concentrate while raging, for example, has serious balance implications.


blackrose4242

Oh, no, I would never want a Barbarian to concentrate during Rage. That being said, Spiritual Weapon doesn’t require concentration.


GarbageTruck7689

I like to do starting feats, but my variant human player gets 2 instead


Shadow_Of_Silver

This is exactly what I do. Stronger players let me use stronger monsters. It's great.


rtakehara

D&D is about problem solving, not my problem, their problem.


Bright_Vision

This. Players get more options and cool stuff, and I don't have to worry about 3 goblins causing a tpk. It's a win-win


Shadow_Of_Silver

I also never start lower than level 3, that way everybody has their subclass already.


WamlytheCrabGod

Always hated how so many classes get their subclass at level 3. Sometimes it really doesn't make any sense for them to suddenly completely change their playstyle to fit their subclass. Especially kensei monks, why am I suddenly going from punching things to hitting them with a sword?


Shadow_Of_Silver

In the case of monks, using a weapon is just better than unarmed strikes until level 5 anyway, so you could use a shortsword before switching to a different type of sword. Spears are usually my go-to for early level monks.


HobbyistAccount

God I wish my DM ran things this way. I'm so tired of having to wait months to get the abilities I built into the character's concept.


Applesaucetuxedo

I always felt like levels 1 and 2 are just there for new players to learn how DnD works. If I remember correctly, the CoS prelude quest has you ending at level 3, so when you start the actual campaign, you’re already level 3.


DerpyDaDulfin

Problem is, now this makes other races far less appealing for feat dependent classes / builds. Humans with 2 feats immediately become dominant forces at level 1, and the obvious choice for any min maxer who wants any combination of: - Crossbow Expert / Sharpshooter - Polearm Master / Sentinel - Mobile / Mageslayer - Spell Sniper / Eldritch Adept Rather than coming online level 4, these characters can be *blasting* with these feats at level 1, allowing them to eclipse just about any race class combo in the game as far as damage output / capability. (From levels 1-3)


i_boop_cat_noses

yeah. feels weird to have that much power when a rat crit can possibly kill them. I did have a DM who allowed first level Feats for everyone, but gave out a list and banned things like GWM and War Caster, things that would give a huge advantage and make no sense for a lvl 1 character to have.


DerpyDaDulfin

Pretty much the only way to balance two feats at level 1 is to ban / modify certain feats. It's an inelegant solution to what OPs meme is. Just give everyone a feat and ban V human, now you don't have to ban feats. Humans (non variant) are still plenty viable, especially with MAAD classes like Monks, Paladins and Barbarians


i_boop_cat_noses

It works well with giving a little extra flavor for the players if tinkered, though it is indeed extra work for the DM. I don't get the panic in the comments over this making humans unviable, getting +1 to every stat and +2 to one if you pick a Feat that gives a bump sounds perfectly playable.


PAN_Bishamon

Instead of having an interesting background, humans get adaptability. This is reflected by the feat. People like to pick human because they like its strength. Adaptability to concept. You removed that from humans, gave it to everyone else. +1 to every stat is almost always a waste of 3+ points, and thus makes it strictly inferior to half-elf 90% of the time. +1 to every stat reflects adaptability far less than the extra feat did. The far more balanced idea would be the V.Human two feats instead of outright banning it. That would let the Humans keep the thing that makes them human, adaptability. If powergaming is an issue its a lot easier to say "Second feat can't be Sharpshooter, GWM, etc" or "second feat can't be a combat feat" which would still allow Humans to keep a lot of that flavor. If people pick it too much that's not a problem, as the difference between 2 humans tends to be far more distinct than two tieflings, at least in my many years of running the game. If you don't want humans at your table, thats totally fine! But lets not pretend +1 to every stat is "good". Its not, people play variant human for a lot more reasons than Sharpshooter. I personally took the chef feat on my last human, because human was the only race that let me easily roleplay as an angry (so normal, I guess) Gordan Ramsey.


UhOhSparklepants

I mean, doesn’t the DM get a veto? I’ve always played where the DM makes the final call. If a combo is OP, just say no


cookiedough320

Problem the other way is nobody wants to play base human unless they don't care about their racial stats. At least allow variant human but restrict the feats to a list of ones that won't allow for anything overpowered.


JewcieJ

Plus there's no bonus for choosing just the vanilla human, so there's no incentive to be one.


Purple-Cat-5304

Finally playing Monk or improving MAD classes, those +1 in all stats plus point buy work wonderfully.


Rek07

Monks (sadly) don’t really need Strength, and Int/Cha are not required either. Most MAD classes really just need 3 stats. So a Half-Elf using Tasha’s modified stat allocation for floating +2 +1 +1 + Darkvision + 2 Skills + Fey Ancestry still blows standard human out of the water.


tyrom22

I’d just let them start with two feats


_deltaVelocity_

That’s wise. kind of hard to do an RPG if your characters can’t walk.


Sum1OnSteam

FOOL! Simply master the arcane arts, and manifest a wheelchair with your MIIIIIND!


_deltaVelocity_

My barbarian simply walks on his hands


garaks_tailor

Scares the ground into moving under him


rtakehara

the lich will regret the day they decided to implement ramps, tactile floors and story-mode puzzles, MUAHAHA!


tyrom22

Kenku in the background *ba dum tisk*


Swooper86

Yeah, my group has been doing that since we started playing 5e, no issues.


WholesomeDM

Yep, I do this. Incentive to play humans!


GutlessMako

I agree, it can be difficult to walk without at least two.


MessinWithLarry

Free feats level one open up so many fun and diverse builds


3DPK

This was my thinking and why I'm running my first game with it.


zenestroe

My GM, at the start of our current campaign, ran some encounters at session zero under the guise of our characters telling stories of our adventures after retiring. It let us get a feel for how our characters worked mechanically and at the end we earned points based on our performance that could be spent on things like feats, stat boosts, or magic items. My warforged ranger earned enough for a feat and a rare magic item. Medium Armor Specialization and a +1 set of half plate which combined with the canny alternate feature on stealth turned me into a tank that could keep up with stealthy plans. Honestly one of the best ways to do a session zero I've been a part of.


3DPK

I did a sesh zero combat for the same reasons. Love the idea of giving perks based off of it other than someone that maybe was new or built their character wrong, still a great idea that I will use, thank you. My session 1 is Sunday and I can't sleep I'm so excited to run my first personal written game. Got a good amount of items in starting area to load them up with rather than just giving it to them to start at lvl3.


zenestroe

Oh the party wound up with roughly the same amount of points to spend. Figuring out a puzzle or getting the final blow in a fight only wound up with a one point difference between the highest performing player and the lowest. For context I had 16 points and another player had 15. A feat/+2 to a stat/+1 to 2 stats/rare item cost 6 points, and 4 for an uncommon item. Good luck with your session one! Hope y'all have fun.


Vegtam-the-Wanderer

I mean, it does mean human goes back to being a horribly mediocre starting race, unfortunately.


WagerOfTheGods

Buff the change you want to see in the world, I guess.


FetusGoesYeetus

Making the level 1 party stronger means I can throw something fun into the first dungeons instead of another spider or ogre.


man0steel93

r/unearthedarcana be like "That's unbalanced and game breaking"


Stealthy_Totoro

And then posts their custom race with unlimited level 1 flight, free cantrip, free level 1 spell, free level 2 spell, dark vision, force resistance, trance, and a natural weapon that deals 2d8. Oh and it can read minds and can’t be charmed or frightened.


thecowley

Unlimited flight isn't that bad imo. If you are flying so high to be unhittable, you are to high to help combat. And my npcs aren't baseline dumb. Oh, a flying spellcaster, target that mofo. And I can plug and chug Pythagorean quick enough to figure out accurate distances


Strong-Entry-1179

>Unlimited flight isn't that bad imo. If you are flying so high to be unhittable, you are to high to help combat. And my npcs aren't baseline dumb. That's not at all true. Fly to ~110ft over a few turns, attack with 120ft range attack (like Eldritch Blast), fly up to 125ft, all in the same turn. Literally unhittable without the enemy preparing an action to shoot when you're in range (or of there's an attack with longer range). Unlimited flying is broken as fuck especially at early levels.


BoredPsion

Solution: ceiling


TheArmoredKitten

Or even just a table assumption not to do cheesy shit unless you want it done back.


Slightly_Smaug

Game balance is actually balancing your real life along with the idea of wrangling four other adults to a specified time to goof around for four hour and be happier for it, but then realizing our current way of life (at least in the US) makes this fucking difficult. So if you can do that, you're a fucking legend.


Misplaced_Hat

I personally don't like making human characters feel less special, but you do what you want at your table.


Insertclever_name

That’s why at my table, everyone gets a free feat, but variant humans get a free feat and a racial feat. Also I usually give out the free feats at level 4 to allow players to work on their characters and settle into them a bit more, but variant human gets their racial feat at level 1 like normal.


NaturalCard

Why ban vhumans tho, just give them 2.


The-Senate-Palpy

"Nobody is allowed to play Elf because everyone gets darkvision and trance"


Ishigami-the-Kami

Still bad. V-Humana not banned. Everyone gets a free feat.


hehslop

OP wants no one to play human. (Vanilla human isn’t a real option because it’s actually bad and that’s why people only play variant.)


4321pickle

Humans technically get the most bonus stats, so if you are a multiclass that requires 3 or 4 different stats, they are actually optimal


Dark_Styx

Optimal is a strong word here. If I needed 4 stats I still wouldn't pick a base human, because you still have 2-3 wasted points and get no other features at all.


Ishigami-the-Kami

That’s what I thought. If you ban V-Human, then Human becomes a literal non-viable option. And well, since humans are the dominant race in not only most homebrew settings, but even in canon lore, this is ***DEFINITELY*** a big red no-go to me.


DerpyDaDulfin

Humans are great if you roll stats, or are a MAD class like Monks and Paladins. Technically they get 6 attribute points total, and with a free feat they're off to the races. Non-viable option is just straight up hyperbole.


cookiedough320

>Technically they get 6 attribute points total 3 of which will be vastly unhelpful. I'd gladly trade 3 of those for dark vision, 2 skills, and fey ancestry. And turning one into a +2, actually.


Ishigami-the-Kami

It’s straight up the worst race in the game 90% of the time. Dunno what part of this is an “hyperbole”.


SteveVerstaka

If I’m running I tell my table standard array, Flexible ability stats from Tashas, and everyone gets a free feat at level one.


xelloskaczor

"Including monsters! Introducing 5 goblins with polearm master as encounter 1!"


GeraldGensalkes

^ the cool DM the cooler DM: level 1 feat (with limitations, of course, excluding the strongest stuff) and you can also choose variant human to get another feat with no restrictions.


Remembers_that_time

Anything that impacts all players equally does not impact balance at all.


rtakehara

Alternative title: what is fun, anyway? (impling humans are fun, most comedians I know are human)


DerpyDaDulfin

Implying that Humans are no longer a viable choice without 2 feats is silly.


ParadoxPanic

I get what you mean, but that's explicitly not how balance works at all lmao


Bazzyboss

This... isn't true. Balance between casters and martials is extremely feat oriented, especially for fighters. Casters only need one feat to perform well (warcaster). While martials are usually interested in taking multiple (sentinel + GWM, Crossbow expert+Sharpshooter etc...). When everyone gets a free feat, the Fighter's extra feats become much less significant. Casters can also proceed to max their main ability pretty easily. Or everyone could just take a thematic feat like actor and gourmet, but I don't really think that happens with the majority of tables.


Aardwolfington

The game isn't balanced anyway. Do whatever makes the game fun for everybody. People would lose their minds at the amount of feats/ASIs I add. 1st - Any feat 4th - Extra feat can't be ASI 6th - Extra Feat or ASI 10th - Extra Feat can't be ASI 14th - Exra Feat or Asi 16th - Extra Feat can't be ASI Fighters gain an extra bonus as 8th and 12th to keep with their feat advantage. And no I don't care if this means most fighters can easily take things like sentinel and other feats that give them tanking abilities. I don't like penalizing people for making a pc that can actually do their jobs.


Darkswords4

Chad.


AwesomeManatee

Standard Humans: have much more starting ASI to compensate for having less features than other races. Variant Humans: have less starting ASI than other races to compensate for your choice of feat, extra skill proficiency, and languages. Custom Lineage Humans: have standard amount of starting ASI and free feat in exchange for no other racial features. They all seem pretty balanced to me.


mergedloki

I give all my characters a free non combat feat at level one as long as they can justify it as being relavant to the character/their backstory. So variant human still gets a bonus feat compared to the other races. And at "feat or asi" levels I allow whatever feat (assuming it fits with the character narritively) and a +1 asi.


Nightangel098

The 5e feat system is IMO the most infuriating thing after having played Pathfinder 1e for so long


Eorel

The feat scarcity is what has always kept me from trying out 5e personally. I want to have as much agency with my characters as possible, the character creation process is one of the best parts of the game and 5e offers nothing but scraps.


WagerOfTheGods

The most frustrating part for me is that I always max my casting stat first, and campaigns never last long enough for me to actually get a feat. But at least I don't have to deal with feat taxes.


RobusterBrown

Game balance is when everyone has the same amount of fun


Otakunohime

Don’t balance the players around the game. Balance the game around the players.


mkul316

Because you're going to need it.


TheShadyMerchant

I think even with the extra feat, humans are still a bit underpowered. So I give them an extra skill or tool proficiency (variant or normal). Makes the normal human a bit more appealing as well.


knyexar

Why not let vhuman get 2 feats


BrokenMirrorMan

If V-human is banned due to not wanting to deal with instant pole arm sent combos or other feat combos similar to that you can just allow one combat feat and the other has to be a utility or a backstory feat.


dragerien

The latter is my biggest homerule when it comes to running 5e. A level 1 feat let's characters flavor themselves early without having to sacrifice their stats later. That being said, I've never banned a race. Least not one from an official source. No, Watchdog, you cannot be a Sangheli Paladin in my campaign.


hehslop

This instantly makes playing a human a disadvantage, while rewarding other races that are granted feat like attributes already. The dump stat vanilla human needs an improvement.


WholesomeDM

I do both. Variant humans get 2 feats. Lol.


ob-2-kenobi

Wait are you saying "Variant Human giving a free feat is unbalanced" or "I'm giving you a free feat anyway, so Variant Human no longer has a purpose"?


DuskEalain

So an issue with Variant Human is it allows you to get your class build online much quicker than anyone else, let's say Polearm Mastery + Sentinel, making you one of the few truly "Tank" roles in D&D. If you play RAW, Variant Human gets their build online at level _4_, whilst everyone else gets their build online at level _8._ Assuming they aren't multiclassing or need to take an Ability Score Increase. If you play with the "Everyone gets a feat at level 1" house rule this makes it better for most other races because they can get their build online at 4 but makes Variant Human's power creep even more insane as they have it online _at character creation._ But if you said "okay everyone _but_ VH starts with an extra feat at level 1" people would moan you're taking away VH's identity and making them unviable (like you can already see people saying normal humans are... lmao) Basically, there's a reason 90% of Powergamers, Min-Maxers, etc. go either Variant Human or a specific race for their niche build. And from a DMing perspective these types of characters/players can be particularly problematic for encounter design because let's say it's a 4 man party with 1 of these types, you either make the encounters harder and make the combat unenjoyable because everyone _but_ the VH Powergamer is horribly outmatched, or you make the combat unenjoyable because the VH Powergamer just steamrolls every encounter. And, at the end of the day, I'd much rather ban Variant Human and have one of four party members temporarily butthurt because they can't play the game like it's League of Legends and suck off some imaginary meta, than let a VH stomp through my game and make the other three miserable in some fashion.


ob-2-kenobi

No yeah I get that, I'm asking about the grammar here. "Variant Human is banned because everyone gets a free feat at level 1" could mean one of two things: "VH is banned because of the free feat it gives you, which other races don't get" "I'm giving everyone a free feat regardless of race, and that house rule makes VH unbalanced" Essentially, "everyone" could mean "everyone playing VH" or "everyone at the table"


DuskEalain

Ahh my bad then. I think what he's saying is the latter as it's a somewhat common house rule to ban VH and give everyone a free feat to begin with (which tbh does feel a lot smoother gameplay-wise.)


Hslize

Best way to use variant human is to get a feat for flavor not to make a busted character


Pauchu_

Once had a free feat with a DM that didn't ban Variant, needles to say one guy created a monster


pawnman99

When everyone is special, no one is.


Nyadnar17

But I like humans though.


Red_Ranger75

I see you and raise you. All races get a free feat and V humans get 2!


GustavoMcGregor

I have a whole seperate system for Feats at my table, because they are so fun and flavorful but ASI is so important. My problem is that some builds just don't work, especially at low levels. So here's my solution (keep in mind I play with people who are not power gamers in the slightest, this probably isn't great for all tables) 1. Feats don't provide ability score increases 2. Feats and ASI are on seperate level scales. 3. ASI stays the same, 4, 8, 12, etc. But feats go like this: 1 free feat at CC and then you get a new one at levels 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18. This has led to some seriously flavorful characters that have a lot more utility. Probably not for everyone, but my table is so heavily homebrewed with quality of life changes.


Beazlebassbro

I've always said this: balance the party against each other, not the world. Then if a party member is too strong, bring people up to compensate.


DuskEalain

> Then if a party member is too strong, bring people up to compensate. The issue with that is power creep, which is something WOTC definitely didn't take into account with Variant Human. Having 1 extra feat will inevitably make you better than everyone who didn't pick VH no matter how much the DM tries to bring you up. Unless they constantly leave the VH player 4 levels behind everyone.


dognus88

Hot take: Everyone gets a free feat. If you would already get a feat talk to the dm about starting with a minor magical item instead of a second feat. Nothing battle focused, but something rp/flavor focused. A quill that can reduce the gold cost of copying down scrolls and can cast illusionary script for free 3 times a day. A driftglobe that is scared of the dark. A sentient rope of climing that writes in cursive. A cooking set that diesnt make any smell or light outside a 20 ft sphere while used on a campfire. A tankered that casts presidigitation on its contents giving it a perfect flavor and tempature of whatever drink is in it.


Axel-Adams

You guys know non ASI feats as story/quest rewards are 100% RAW right?


FranksRedWorkAccount

Uh, my character would like two feet thank you very much.


CWhitfill

I like feats at level one, and varient humans. Plus rolling seven time for stats and dropping the lowest roll. Then I can throw some higher CR monsters sooner. Balence is what you make it.


Tstrik

I give variant human an extra +2 as a conciliation since I won’t let them start with 2 feats but I recognize that standard human is bad even with a free feat.


Shrapnel_Sponge

I agree with this completely, giving everyone feats at level 1 really lets people pick more interesting and diverse races if they want to, allowing for happier players being who they want to be


Vydsu

I mean, now instead of all human party its no human party cause non-variant sucks.


MrMauze

Something something "optional rules"


cityofnitemares

I honestly don't like this idea. A starting feat for everyone doesn't affect balance since everyone has an advantage, not just certain party members. The extra feat doesn't really make humans that more powerful than other races since the lack of other features is the trade-off so as long as it makes sense for the character and isn't just powergaming, two feats should be fine. Most people choose variant over normal humans because normal humans are super underwhelming so taking that away from people who want to play humans for story reasons is a bad move.


LightofNew

Humans get two feats


Cheemgles

ok i’ll just take regular human then for that +1 to everything


DerpyDaDulfin

No you can't do that! Humans aren't viable without the v. Human option! /s