This is called Middle Management & they’ve always been useless. Glad everyone’s finally waking up to this phenomenon in corporations.


Middle management are the police of the organization. They're there to keep order on the underlings and shield the higher-ups.




Defund the police lol


Abolish capitalist regime police.


So just police


That’s not their sole purpose. They help pad the bottoms of higher-level bosses because their importance is proportionnal to the number of cattle beneath them.


I'll take an invisible boss over one that micromanages out the butthole any day though


One thing that I find eternally infuriating of large corporations is the sheer amount of irrelevant, redundant middle range positions whose sole purpose is to play the telephone game carrying information to the upper tiers


And most of them are too stupid to play the telephone game so they often fuck up that info transfer and create more problems.


[https://youtu.be/hNuu9CpdjIo](https://youtu.be/hNuu9CpdjIo) "I have people skills!"


One thing that I find eternally infuriating of large corporations is the sheer amount of irrelevant, redundant middle range positions whose sole purpose is to play the telephone game carrying information to the upper tiers


Socialist People's Police would actually help people, unlike capitalist regime police who protect business property over everything.


That’s called “social workers”


Ah yes much better to be hit with the People's Stick . ACAB


Don't call them "police" if their job is to help people. Social workers, crisis managers, emergency response, etc. are all good alternatives.




That's one that no one is going to argue with even though middle managers kill much fewer innocent people than cops. That I know of.


Still highly suspect that the middle manager at my last job probably was the final nail in the coffin for the guy to go home and hang himself. Not joking on that. She was ripping into him aggressively and abusively for not properly emptying trash cans of liquid (What do you think happens when drunks toss their glass bottles into a plastic bag?) during the major circle of emptying all cans on the floor. Next time I saw him was in a notice on the door that he had passed on. Ironically the "actual managers" job above the middle manager (yeah right, total waste of space) she bestowed upon herself as the memo queen typed up a email and posted it that no one was to attend his funeral except family. His friends tore all those down and hung up the correct ones. It was come one, come all regardless of how well you knew him


I'd have risked the assault charge to knock some humanity into that living boil.


The amount of suicides around thr globe shitty mid level managers are responsible for is probably staggering


Surprisingly I have had success in showing senior management how useless my manager is. He’s on notice and sweating buckets at every meeting we have. Now senior management are making him sweat he has no time to harass me.


Having been a middle manager, I concur. Also: AMAB. The job forces you to become a horrible person. Not all middle managers are bad humans, but the good ones tend not to last and the manage-up kapo shitballs stick around forever and become organizationally intractible.


I learned in retail in my 20s, if you have an awesome direct manager it'll be less than 1 year where he's removed and replaced by a total monster in a human skin suit.


Can confirm I was that manager lasted a whole year and a half trying to shield my underlings from the BS


You're one of the good ones. You've been seen, I know it. For those who don't know and have a good one - you have a year, make an escape plan.


That's funny, I just resigned as a manager while attempting to make life better for the good employees who didn't rat on others. I lasted 11 months lol. People cried when I announced I was leaving, as I helped a lot of them through major events. I will miss the team but it's not worth my mental health.


Maybe being a good manager is also a soul sucking job. I just know all my good ones either get promoted up chain quickly OR they're moved to the problematic stores to fix them since our store ran SO WELL under them.




I haven't worked retail since I was a teen and it was an observation more than 1/2 my life ago that's still true but in corporations now.


Ditto this as a former middle manager. I hated every minute of it. Hope not to have to do it again.


Managers are class traitors


Not necessarily. I've had good managers who turned a blind eye to me trying to organize the place. To quote him "they don't pay me enough to give a fuck."


Many are, but I wouldn't make this distinction categorically, unless one were to apply it to all corporate jobs (and most people have no other choices). Ultimately, if corporate executives are paying you to do something, it's almost certainly bad for society... all we can really ask of people is that they use what little wiggle room they have for the best they can.


I became a manager a few months ago. My boss said that it seems like people on my team are discussing pay with each other and that I should try to stop it. I told her that I can't legally do anything to stop it and that I thought that she might be breaking the law by trying to get me to stop it. I also told her that it makes sense to discuss pay and that if people are being paid fairly then they have nothing to worry about (I don't officially know anyone's salary). Yeah, I may have been the one that encouraged my employees to discuss pay with each other.


All Middle Management Are Bastards


They're also there to defuse and disrupt the flow of information so the underlings have only the information and data they need to perform their tasks and no more. They see information as power and denying it to the plebs as power-mongering. Also in not letting the little guys see the bigger picture or have all the information they stop them becoming their competition. The entire game is rigged from the top down.


This is a thing that is not talked about enough


My old supervisor did just this. He would try to filter upstream and downstream info to make himself look/feel better. He would get absolutely enraged when we would just directly address those above him and get a response.


It was so easy to see through. Email the CEO and copy the middle manager, and middle manager would be in my cubicle in 30 seconds asking why I was bothering the CEO. Dude - the CEO responded and gave me approval to buy the part I've been asking you about for 3 months. Do you think I'm stupid?


My manager made a huge misstep. She went on vacation and asked another manager who is above her to step in because us plebs were too over burdened so someone needed to offload something to this other manager. And this manager started to ask questions and took the underling to my manager's boss. Broke the shield. Sadly she won't be punished in the same way we would :|


Wait, who are you advocating for to be punished? It sounds like the other manager helped the underlings by connecting them directly with the higher-up boss and giving them a new connection to information.


I'm talking about the manager who when she went on vacation it was revealed she's basically shit at her "job". She's ineffective at being an ineffective middle manager. Edit: everyone else was shocked, no one knew up the chain, how bad she is.


Or as they've colloquially been called..."whip crackers". They aren't the bosses...they're just the guys the bosses gave whips to.


Good middle management shields their people from management, not the other way around. They fight the higher-ups for clear goals that make sense and fight for higher wages for their people.


My middle manager is so good that I've never had to meet the actual department head. Any problems I have I bring it up and she takes care of it, even some duties that are technically my responsibility she's happy to help with. And she's always there to fill in whenever someone can't make it because she knows how to do all of the jobs. When I want to use my earned time she doesn't ask for a reason either. I just get to use it. As far as I'm concerned she's one of the best bosses I've ever had.


Sure, but that's the exception, not the rule.


True and that is a shame. I have been lucky enough to have managers like that. Ones who asked me to do a project and then kept the higher ups off my back when it turned out the project's goal were not reachable in the time set and got me more time. It was nice.


A good manager knows when to kick back at the higher ups. I told my GM at my store, "you have more powe then you realize, use it". Know your position, and don't overextend your hand, have your employees trust and even if you get fired, those relationships and trust won't go away. Trust is hard to build, but easy to destroy.


I'm very happy to be part of the exception then. Gave most of my direct reports the holidays off and worked the days, helped the ones that worked on all their daily tasks and also did mine.


My word for someone who does that is not "manager," it's "leader."


Good middle management convinces their mark that what you said is true.


Just a shame that good middle management doesn’t exist


I got downvoted for saying this in another thread on this very sub. "Cops is to the BLM movement what middle management and HR is to the antiwork movement" is what i said. It brings me such happiness that people are finally seeing this.


My boss told me as a new “promoted manager” my job is not to be good at the things I am monitoring, but to ensure my team of people is good at their job and getting stuff done. I get the idea of being a good leader, but the idea of “don’t know how to do the things I’m telling you to do” was odd. Instead I have been just doing the jobs of the people I “manage” and learning how to help out when we are busy or have a few dozen people call in sick from Covid.


Interestingly, there's some research in the management literature that this is exactly why current organizational structures at most companies are inefficient. People rise to their maximum level of incompetence. I.e. You get promoted (to a job with slightly different responsibilities) for being good at a job. So, you'll eventually be stuck in a job where you aren't promoted because you aren't good at it. It's such a problem that some simulations have shown a random promotion strategy (using a random number generator to pick who gets promoted) to be more effective. It both discovers people who have skills for the new job that aren't evaluated in their current role and avoids removing people who are good at their current position.


Part of the problem is pay bands. The only way to make more money at some point is to move up in to management. If we could normalize just paying people more in the jobs they are good at, that would probably help alleviate it a lot.


I think there's more to it. It's that and also the selection process. In my experience, management selects for people who are competent enough to do the paperwork, just mean enough to get workers to do the job without driving them away, but not smart or self aware enough to know they're getting screwed by the owners just about as much as any worker. Creativity and kindness are selected against.


Absolutely. Sorry if I was unclear; I didn't mean to imply those were the only factors at play. There are so many things that make promotions through middle management, as they are currently structured, a mess.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle This was shown in 1969 and explains a lot about managers.


Damn, I saw my future flash before me(more drepressed now). One of my favorite things to do in my new position is to approve vacation days. They come to me like “is it okay I take a day?” Cut to me(20 years younger than them in a lab coat in a oversized office chair that I stole from the break room) “**HECK YEAH YOU CAN, they are YOUR DAYS**”. I am trying to not be like my old boss who was an ass for vacation days(always bitched at how much work it was to deal with…I have his same job and it’s 2 clicks to do)


I'm the middle man at my office, and when the guys below me ask for time off (we have very minimal pto, it's usually just unpaid) i always say yes and i never ask why. I used to because i care about them as humans and was curious what they were up to, but realized it's none of my business. So now my boss always asks why so and so is out and i always say "no idea."


I find this is unfortunately especially true in health care. ​ For instance, I got promoted because I was / am a great nurse, so did a person I knew. Fortunately I also got a master's degree in organizational leadership in nursing, so I learned and knew what I had to do to be a leader / manager (I wish these sorts of degrees were required to be in leadership, because they teach you a TON, like showing that team morale is significantly more important than nearly anything else, as it increases productivity, etc.). ​ The other person promoted alongside me was a mess. As a bedside nurse, people often don't see if you can do paperwork, or have good customer service skills, or know where to draw lines. Guy got so ridiculously taken advantage of because he wanted to be friends with everyone, let 70% of the staff take the week of Christmas off to the point we were understaffed, had no problem solving ability for issues like understaffing or people calling in sick, would just be like "Welp...that sucks". ​ It only gets worse the higher you go in health care, i.e. I had a chief nursing officer of a large hospital chain decide to argue with me for 20 minutes about a change in an MD order-set that would spell out when to notify an MD if a patient hadn't had a bowel movement. Because she was convinced the staff could think of it themselves and would "do the right thing". Unfortunately, even if the staff SHOULD know it, without an order in, we can't hold the staff accountable if they ignore it, they'll just say "there was no order about it" and the union will protect them. ​ Sorry for the rant, this is something I honestly feel really weird about, as an upper-middle management person now I know so many useless middle managers, and useless upper management, as well as a few great ones on both ends. ​ More than anything I just really think the issue comes down to no one is transparent with anyone, which is what I strive to always be. i.e. my staff once asked me why it took me 2 days to answer a vacation request because they had to book flights (different note, maybe put in your vacation request more than a week in advance if flights are needed...?), and I pointed out to them I ended up working the COVID triage line for 24 out of 36 hours because ironically our employees got COVID, so I literally had no chance to look at it.


Kinda in the same position. I got promoted with a few people under me and I haven't got the hang of monitoring people. I just work with them to finish the projects. It just sucks that when there is a time crunch, I usually get all hands on and do it myself. I gotta learn how to step back and let th figure it out.


I remember when I got promoted to a foreman position at an old job. After a few weeks my mentor, the guy who trained me when I was new, and then let me take on a leadership role so I could advance, he asked me how it was going. I told him 'the hardest part is watching someone struggle to do a job for his when I could do it myself in half the time.'. He laughed and said that's what he had to go through with me. Good luck with your new position.


i'd venture to say they are counter productive. for most of my bootlicking experience across many different kinds of leather, and although anecdotal, i have found that night shift always has higher production numbers than day shift. You'd be surprised what people can do if you let them be and have them do their thing, and not get in their way.


Nightshift gets laid off because it makes dayshit look bad \*story of my career\*


I've worked night shift and it's a combination of having people who generally aren't asskissers and also not having management types interfering with getting the job done with pointless meetings.


My boss is suffering the ill effects of middle management. You can tell he hates it, he shits on his position all the time. He at one point was invited to important meetings but he’s alienated the higher ups with his personality, so now all he does is manage my team. He’s toId all of us at one point or another our projects are small and insignificant. We ask him to come to meetings and he rarely shows up. He knows (and we’ve proven) that we can run these projects without him. When people ask him what he’s working on though, he’ll directly name our projects. It’s so annoying, but I know people see through him.


I'll take an invisible boss over one that micromanages out the butthole any day though


Invisible and intangible boss = best boss.


I wouldn’t complain, I love when my manager is invisible versus the **be cogizzant** and **disapalicary** manager types. :3


Middle management is the worst


Ive known for decades.. Lol. Glad everyone else is sorting that out.


Shhhh don't wake up too early this is literally me and I get back to literally do nothing. Lots of reading, working out, Netflix and gaming in the companies dime.


I'm middle management, but my job isn't as you describe. I'm not saying you're wrong--you're right for most middle managers. But effective organizations use middle management to protect employees. My job is essentially doing the shitty stuff like getting yelled at by angry customers so my staff don't have to deal with it, picking up work when staff are out so they don't have to stress about coverage, etc. Middle management needs to be flipped--we need to work for our employees, not police them.


This. Good middle managers also need to be rewarded with appropriate pay and benefits. In my industry, managers usually make less than staff. They’re paid salary with no ability to earn overtime pay.


Good thing that even their jobs are up to removal through AI. We can now teach a program to watch productivity on something, like, sales force, and automatically send out warnings, reviews, and even additional trainings as necessary. We won't need middle management at all.


> Glad everyone’s finally waking up theyre not


Good middle managers are great, they shield workers from the bullshit. They're very uncommon, though. Ego and insecurity gets in the way.


It's not just egu amd isegurity. Have you read a business studies book? The whole point is "how can I extract value from workers without paying them". It's a structural problem. They are basically capitalism in the flesh.


As a middle manager, I find you have to make your self useful and helpful to your team. In my call center I have autonomy to coach my team as they need it. We do Dealership BDC so there is a sales aspect to it. If a person is unproductive we look at every aspect. One woman had her computer and monitors set up in a way that wasn’t working for her so I made a suggestion for a change and she went from 80 calls to 200 calls a day. There are so many shitty managers out there that are only in their position because they weren’t productive but someone up top likes them so they gave them that position. Those are usually the worse types of managers. I worked very hard for my position. I also get paid a lot more than the average call center manager and I am due for another raise in April. Edit: we all work remote too.


I’m in software dev and our middle managers are shitting their pants. They are quickly being transitioned into project management and product ownership roles where they actually have to understand the line of business and the day to day work we do. They’re in over their heads


RIP micro mangers! We won’t miss you!


Disagree. An ethical and fair "middle-manager" should maintain the welfare of their team and be a fair representative of said team to senior management.


This is so naive friends. Wait til you become a leader who really needs that layer in between you and the troops. Front line managers are the most shit upon and work longer hours than anyone —in my experience. I mean, as a middle manager, I worked crazy hours to help ensure my peeps didn’t have to work late or weekends. Most of my peers felt/feel the same. Take today, all Sr Vps and above are off for the week just chilling while middle managers on down are holding the fort. I wouldn’t say “finally waking up” either as “span of control” metrics have been a thing for decades. I think the wake up is that you don’t have to be breathing down someone’s back to get shit done, but lead with objectives and accountability vs being a taskmaster. So many great thought cone from the sub but honestly some it also comes accross as sooooo naive.


I've done management. I have no doubt you have experience counter to the OP, but that doesn't invalidate everyone else's experiences or make us naive. And I *really* hope you don't talk to your staff the way you just wrote your comment and then say you're part of the antiwork movement.


Middle management is a niche tool being used for every purpose. There are some places where it belongs. Where it belong and where it is now? The circle graphs are a pair of eyeglasses the blind-ass leadership refuses to use.


One thing that I find eternally infuriating of large corporations is the sheer amount of irrelevant, redundant middle range positions whose sole purpose is to play the telephone game carrying information to the upper tiers


That’s not their sole purpose. They help pad the bottoms of higher-level bosses because their importance is proportionnal to the number of cattle beneath them.


Makes you think that we're not that far from the medieval courts with Bards and Jesters


Corporate feudalism


Capitalism is a direct descendant of feudalism.


Except that the job of a jester is to tell the king what's up in the kingdom that his yes men won't tell him, which is okay because he's an "idiot who doesn't know any better" than to talk to an important guy like that


I feel like that's more true in fiction than it ever was in real life. I'm steroetyping in a major way of course, but... people in power tend to be humorless psychopaths. Jesters who "speak truth to power" get killed. (Power knows what the truth is; the dangerous bit is if power knows others know.) Jesters who function as controlled opposition by making fun of those in charge, but in a harmless way, get kept around.


You're probably right. I'm probably thinking of a meta-analysis of Batman and the Joker


The 'jester as a foil to the king' thing is about 99% apocryphal. Most jesters were essentially just human sitcoms. Just low-brow entertainment to keep the lords amused during dinner time. The pop culture idea of the jester is most informed by contemporary writers and playwrights like Shakespeare who used a lot of "wise fools" as a storytelling device.


And it's to add plausible deniability: if some wrongdoing is enough layers removed from the boss, they can claim that they weren't aware and it was just the doings of some underling's underlings and all those people should be punished, even though the boss was 100% aware and may have even encouraged that shit. It's the same excuse the Nazis used at Nuremberg, btw...


Yes, but the low wage workers are drowning in work and need help yet are never allowed to hire more staff (as if they could hire anyone at the wages they would offer).


I feel attacked


I've become my manager's go-to delegate when he's on vacation. I legitimately cannot figure out how the guy fills 40 hours.


They sit on meetings *all day* and talk in circles. I’ve been pulled into some of them and it’s painful.


I've heard that this also happens in the military. The middle-tier officers don't really do any of the fightings on the ground, but they relay all the information to the generals. Often, they just tell the generals what they want to hear so I can make them look good. If you want to get a picture of how warm it's going, all you have to do is talk to the soldiers fighting it. They'll often give you a totally different picture than the colonels who are supposedly in charge of the troops.


It infuriates them too, though. Nobody wants to get promoted for good work into a position that has zero value and where they have to justify it by showing they are accomplishing something. I assure you that if those people could keep their raises and move to something else, they would. Just because they have a manager title doesn't mean they're a dick, or have any difference desires for their job than you.


They're like male anglerfish, melted into the body of the female to parasitize and impregnate at random


This describes my job accurately….


Yup. For this reason only was there a call for people to return to the office. I’ve worked from home since March 2020, & my productivity has gone up, along with my colleagues’. My line manager should be worried.


This has been my experience as well. The only reason there has been a push back to the office was so the managers could keep an eye on things easier, despite everyone having higher productivity working from home. They're afraid of their useless jobs disappearing, because frankly they contribute nothing to the process.


Other than their relentless desire to micro manage individuals, or take credit for their work. Whilst there are some good team leaders, in my experience through this pandemic, many have been found wanting.


There's no reason to bring us back to office 2 years into work from home but my covid denying managers want to force us to get together indoors in JANUARY with no option to decline. I don't want to pull Hitler card but ... literally this is something only Hitler would suggest.


You really don't need that card. It's just something a capitalist would suggest.


I'm literally rushing to get a doctor's note saying it's a health risk for me to be in this event and staying home on PTO because fuck this madness in dead up winter with the worst of Covid's morphs floating around. Nope Nope Nope.


I’m still wfh, last year I raised more money than ever for a campaign my team runs, came up with the theme for another major campaign,hired and onboarded an associate remotely, ran another successful campaign and event during a time before people were vaccinated, and came up with the speakers and theme for another event. When I had a panic attack when we went back to the office briefly and told my boss I was having severe anxiety from burnout, I was told I could take unpaid leave and they suggested I no longer supervise my direct report because of stress. What? Just stop micromanaging people and hire enough people to do the work that needs to get done… My new supervisor freaked out when she heard my direct report would be working out of state over the holidays. Why? He’s done his job remotely for the past year and a half…


Mine hasnt, but that's because I have mental health issues that revolve around being easily distracted and zoning out. So I kinda need somebody to keep an eye on me.


Ah. I might be able to help, genuinely. Not only did I endure long Covid symptoms for many months, I’m also slightly dyslexic and ADHD. If you get to therapy/assistance with this, it’s a game changer. My tasks are handled in more manageable chunks , I ensure I work in 45 minutes stints, then take a few minutes to do a completely different task, & I use mindfulness techniques to ‘reset’ myself. Please do look into such things, I can assure you, you don’t need someone cracking the whip behind you.


I just posted about this. Was dropping off something at a big insurance place and got to talking with the guy signing for the package. Says he’s worried about his job because he will lose it if people keep working from home.


Good! It means his job was being an annoying little shit that actually hindered the real work being done.




For the first time in my life I have a great manager. Every other manager I’ve ever had says they don’t micromanage, but they do. My last job was awful. My manager now just assigns me a few clients to work on, provided the training on how to do my job, and now just sits back and stays out of it. She was yellow on teams all day but what do I care. By doing less her team is able to do so much more.


I haven’t talked to my manager since early December. Great guy


My manager is awesome, he calls me every few weeks to see how I’m doing and sends me emails about important things I need to see. Other than that the only interactions I have with him are asking him work questions and talking about random stuff. My project managers are pretty much the same, just asking about the project in the morning and being available to ask questions.


A manager should be a professional mentor to their team, be an advocate for their team to upper management, shield their team from administrative burdens like staffing, scheduling, and funding, and ideally be either an expert in the field or competent enough to contribute to the project if needed. Managers that are babysitters in suits should be laughed out of the business.


"We know your job can be done more easily and efficiently from the comfort of your couch, but we're going to need you to go back to wasting time, money, and fuel commuting to work 5 days a week so middle management has a reason to exist again. Tim from HR is so depressed without employees to shame that he spends all day wandering the halls and sighing every 20 seconds." Turns out that we're actually more productive without useless idiots constantly shaming us for not giving 100% every single second. And yes, they generally are useless idiots. As Scott Adams, creator of *Dilbert*, put it, "Leadership is nature's way of removing morons from the productive flow."


Dilbert guy is a fuckwad fr but i guess a broken dog shines on a clock’s ass and all that


I don't really like him, but his comic is pretty cool sometimes.




I've been in 2 businesses that had rounds of layoffs / redundancies and each time it was middle-management level. Like for years these people were promoted and paid inflated wages to do what Workforce Management software and good MI could do and the all of a sudden when shit hits the fan... Turns out we don't need 10 people to manage 60 of you, we only need 6.


What's really crazy is when they lay off the individual contributors, but keep the managers. Are those managers going to know how to do those jobs, then?


I worked for a mid-sized engineering office that was spun off and sold several times in succession. Each time we changed owners they’d lay off workers and add managers, to the point that the org chart looked like an inverted pyramid. We always joked that the company would collapse when the final worker at the bottom died from “statuscide”.


Had a similar thing happen when at a private club/event space I worked at we got a new corporate GM to run the place. We ended up with more managers than service staff and the GM was confused why everyone stopped coming. We were all sitting around going “well cause you fired all the servers in a service sector business and replaced them with people filling out customer satisfaction forms”


Same, my employer has skimmed like 3 layers of middle management in the last 5 or 6 years. This is a Fortune 15 company so unfortunately there were that many layers.


My boss is pretty cool, but yeah, I can tell when working remotely she's really trying to find things to do. Schedules an hour-long meeting with me, when there isn't more than 10 minutes of things that need to be discussed.


Honestly this just furthers the need to elevate to a higher society where we aren't capitalist in nature. People get work done when they either enjoy it, or don't feel displeasure from working on and completing it. You don't have to love your job to be productive, you have to just ***not hate it.***


And that of course starts with building a better society so you don't have to worry about the financial aspects of trying to ***literally live***.




I mean absolutely no harm when I ask this I'm just a somewhat right leaning person who's trying to understand the whole anti-capitalist part of this group from other people in my financial situation (working class, paycheck to paycheck, hating life, etc) How would socialism accomplish that? That being the ideal society where people work on things they enjoy BECAUSE the whole work for a living isn't necessary. How would socialism accomplish it? Assume we're implying society would take care of those basic necessities (which again, I mean absolutely no disrespect just looking for an answer from someone who believes in socialism and not from my right leaning misinformed buddies) but like what funds/provides the necessary push to get everyone those basic necessities without someone working to make that occur? The biggest argument against socialism/communism I've seen is that everything comes with a price, and so if we want things provided something has to provide it. Basically what I'm asking, is it possible to provide the necessities to everyone without anyone doing shit they don't want to do to make that happen?


It's dismantling the need to rely on finances to get by. People aren't saying "Work is unnecessary" We're saying "The capitalist concept of "working" is inherently exploitative and flawed" Tasks and labour are necessary for a functional society. Making it so you can only eat if you do jobs you hate, is against our nature. But our programs, laws, bylaws, social assistance and just about anything you can think of, is centered around money. Yes, it would take a lot of work to rewire the system. But it's possible. Take paperwork for example, do you think ALL people who do any kind of paperwork for a living ALL hate it? Or does someone out there, enjoy the numbers, the order, the filing systems etc? But we're also ***not*** aiming for that person to have to ONLY do that, all week, just to get by. I hope this helps a little.


Something I've noted to a lot of people is that people are a lot more willing to do work they hate if the work pays very well. Think of it like this: Would you be willing to clean an entire stable of cow dung with a toothbrush in order to make 5 dollars? No, of course not. How about 5 million, though? You'd be *over the moon* with excitement. (Well, actually, you'd be extremely skeptical of the payout being real, but let's assume it was already validated somehow.) The problem with work nowadays is largely tied to how unrewarding it is. Most people, especially if they're just entering the work force for the first time, are not even close to being able to fully provide a comfortable life for themselves. But there are few options for them to be able to switch to a more rewarding option. Yet - especially in the US - companies can get away with such low-paying jobs, because those jobs are also tied to things like benefits. Most notably, *healthcare.* There's no real safety net for anyone who's stuck in a job they hate. Quit that job, and their already poor financial situation gets worse, and if they have any health issues, they're *fucked*. Many of the folks chasing some of the ideals of socialism aren't blindly hoping for some idyllic Universal Basic Income that allows everyone to just watch TV all day for the rest of their lives - they want things like healthcare to be basic rights, for there to be systems that will set folks up with appropriate jobs, for there to be a form of welfare for those who need it, for regulations that prevent corporations from squeezing their employees dry just to make a quick extra buck to fund the Billionaire Goes to Space goal.


Don’t forget the useless HR Karens


Not surprisingly, the ones who got shit done in the office still do remotely. The bullshitters continue to be useless, regardless of where they’re sitting.


Imagine how much money the corporations could save without their massive HQs and campuses, and the emissions we could curb by not having people with remote possible jobs going in to some stupid building.


Employers would also benefit because their labor pool expands dramatically. It's no longer limited to people who live within a short drive. You can hire people thousands of miles away now. You think they'd want this.


I also read about the term “Bullshit Jobs” which someone wrote a book on. Basically any job where you honestly feel there would be zero impact if the job didn’t exist yet your happy to collect a wage four doing it.


David Graeber. Recently passed away, awesome writer. He also has an essay arguing that many people are comfortable with organizing around anarchist principles already without the name attached to them


Hey could you please share the name of the essay?


Are You An Anarchist? The Answer May Surprise You: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/david-graeber-are-you-an-anarchist-the-answer-may-surprise-you


These jobs are talked about a lot in David Graeber’s Bullshit Jobs. They are the aforementioned bullshit jobs. They don’t provide anything to society and just tick the box of having a job. Good riddance.


Kind of. Yes middle management is obsolete. It is getting replaced with tracking software and “productivity reports.”


No, instead they tell us to fill out endless reports of what we do, wasting our times just to give them stupid updates instead of actually working.


At my first job I had to log all of the things I did in a day in five minute increments. I did so and made sure to note that half an hour a day was spent compiling my status reports. My witch of a boss was furious but I continued doing it because it was accurate. So basically 2.5 hours a week out of 40 hours meant over 5% of my time was useless recordkeeping.


Hahahaha literally the first thing i said when lockdowns and wfh started. 'The fun part is the middle management massacre that follows'


It's funny, I've been written up a few times for playing video games at work, but I was approved for WFH. What the hell do they think I'm gonna do? The only reason they notice is because of some old fat cunt walking around the halls to spy on employees, my stats are the best in my team. ​ I should just start performing like shit out of spite.


I spend half my day working "remotely". I still go into the office though. The remote work is actually for our Toronto offices (I'm in Montreal). I'm fine with that though. I got a raise and do less work now than I used to. My managers in Montreal don't care what I'm doing during my Toronto time and the Toronto managers don't pay much attention to me, so long as I get my work done. It just re-enforced my belief that the higher paid you are, the less work you're likely doing. I worked harder and got paid much less when I was at Subway Sandwiches.


Front line customer service and retail are some of the hardest jobs on the planet. Greuling physical and/or mental work for little pay,


The executive team decided to spend millions of dollars a year on spyware and it stressed me out because I always did my best and having to report to a program when I had actual work to turn in made me a little crazy. It got so bad I had to go on leave, but I realized when I was out that is there specifically to try and scare me into being more productive. A decision made by people who don't even check their own email. So now I do the bare minimum all day because fuck them.


It’s all via IT and nanny programs now. They know who isn’t working. Not everyone is able to hack working remote.


Never have a manager who isn’t adding value and leading; otherwise they are costing money and irritating everyone.


But major companies also invest in land speculation for commercial and domestic real estate and this is also why big corporations are reluctant to go full wfh. For example, Google buys up houses and then gives financial "aid" in markets where speculation has made affording a house impossible, to people they are trying to hire becoming, in effect, their landlords as well as employees.


Used to work at The Blue Home Improvement Store, and they literally had a manager who's entire job was to stand at the opposite side of the registers and Watch cashiers to make sure we weren't committing war crimes like Sitting, or even worse, ***Leaning***.


Let me be at home, and I'll easily do in 4 hours what took 8 hours being pestered by middle management in the office.


This is kinda false white collar work has never been more monitored now that everyone has tracking software and shit on their work from home computers.


If you can't tell who your productive reports are based on their output. If you need to clock watch and micromanage. You are a shitty manager and need to be replaced


Just started at a small tech company and they are requiring in person. It's pretty frustrating because it doesn't help my job to be in person, I spend 90% of my day doing nothing and the boss who requires this leaves 2 hrs early everyday anyway so it's a do as I say not as I do thing. I love the job and want to keep it, but fuck the old school mentality of wasting my time so you can see people in a office to make you feel better is so frustrating.


Workers agreeing to meeting certain goals rather than set schedules takes a ton of power out of the hands of the owners. The basis of capitalism is extracting the surplus value from those extra hours of production you're not getting paid extra for. Moving away from a set schedule horrifies bosses and it should. What if you spent that extra time like, mentally recovering, enjoying time with your family, and then expect that as normal? What if you spend it with other workers and you start organizing? Better for the boss to have you on premises and busy busy busy. This is also why, when you increase productivity and automate your tasks, you're not suddenly working less hours.


Our call center is now entirely remote and you bet your behind we are monitoring production. However, my boss just saw a bunch of people had unused PTO and is making everyone use it before it expires on the first. Not all jobs are bad.


Honestly, yes i do. Fuck working. I'll do nothing every chance I can at this "job"


This is the way.


The company I work for had their best year ever in 2020. I’m sure there’s other factors involved, but it’s still hilarious to me that it happened the year so many managers/executives were stuck at home unable to interfere with anyone.


Honestly if that level of management was only there to monitor the employees then their job could have been covered by incentives for employees to monitor themselves. Meanwhile the org I work for doesn't have their heads up their asses and since going remote management hasn't had a change in their duties or output.


Maybe they should pull themselves up by their bootstraps and work a real job then, it's not rocket surgery.


After 23 months of telework, the US. government is ordering all of the office staff back into the offices in February for at least one day a week. Why has not been answered. After 23 months of work produced , any deadwood would be just as obvious on telework as in person, so why not cancel the leases and save that money.


Middle management: We need to be back in the office because we're better together! Me: Then why haven't you done one single thing during work from home to foster that togetherness remotely? Middle management: SHUT UP They used to like to do these stupid team building things periodically. Why not do some remotely? Why not use some of your staff meeting to encourage conversations? They're all so useless.


*Image Transcription: Twitter Post* --- **Molly Priddy**, @mollypriddy the pandemic rendered useless a whole level of management whose entire job was to physically monitor the employees and the bosses are MAD --- ^^I'm a human volunteer content transcriber and you could be too! [If you'd like more information on what we do and why we do it, click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/TranscribersOfReddit/wiki/index)


It's nice to have a person / manager to be able to reach out to when issues arise or direction. The problem seems to arise when places have as damn near as many or more management staff as employees doing the work. Before all of this mess started our shop had a manager for basically each 'department' even if some of the roles were similar and the 'department' consisted of one or two team members. Believe the count was at 7 managers overseeing 24 workers before the great culling (Inventory, CNC, Quality, Fabrication, Assembly, Welding, Shipping/Receiving). Some of those departments literally only had one or two team members and one overall shop supervisor in charge of the managers and hourlies. They basically axed all but two of the supervisors and now just have the most senior employee in each department as a 'lead' for the go to before going to the two supervisors. Imagine they saved at least 400k a year in just payroll wages not including benefits from cutting those 5 managers. I think the place actually runs a bit smoother now honestly.


I don’t have anything useful to add. I just hate middle managers and anyone who thinks it’s a “career”. And if there’s any of those leeches lurking around here let me formally invite you to eat my entire ass.


If that's all they were doing, they weren't doing their **actual jobs**.


Well when you have Generations of people invested in process driven management instead of results based management SOmething is bound to snap.....hard.


Good middle management (and yes, it exists) is a godsend for business operation. Bad middle management on the other hand, is absolutely toxic and drives turnover like you wouldn't believe. Unfortunately most middle managers are so poorly equipped to lead that they quickly descend into micro-management or power plays.


I just made this point the other day in another thread. It was **not** well received. Tough shit, assholes. You can no longer steal credit or seem important or whatever other bullshit lies you tell to make you seem big and important. You are not. You know this, and are deathly afraid that *your bosses* are going to find out. Keeping you employed or being cannon fodder is not a good reason to come back to the office. Nice try, though.


This is why they are calling everybody back into the office for no good reason....so they can justify their own existences again.


You'd think companies would be ecstatic to drop so many useless salaries.


Yeah I’ve always worked in a job where I had layers and layers of management. Suddenly slack and teams exists and I just message whoever I need to get the info for customers.


And it usually ends up being the boomers that don't understand that the world moves on with or without them


"I pay you for 8 hours" is an obsolete boomer concept. It's not 1950s post war grandpa. 2020 is the age of automation. You pay me by results to get the job done. How i do it is up to me so if I take 8 hours or 5 minutes is none of your business, it's mine. Employers job is quality control of my business.


Team leader here: that's not always true. Some people absolutely need monitoring because they actively seek ways to do the least possible.


Dare you suggest that Lumberg in Office Space gives no value-added?


This is due to people getting promoted to manager positions with ZERO management training. They ferry promoted because either they were great at the job they are supposed to manage or they kissed the right ass. You don't need to hover over people to manage them. Your job is to guide the team to the company goal while helping them overcome obstacles. Every person on that team needs to be handled differently. Some might need a brief overview and send them on their way, others might need constant encouragement, and a few you might need to coach to correct issues. Hovering and micromanagement isn't being a manager, it's being a pest.




WFH is going to show how clearly useless and unproductive so many managers are. Government would be going through the same thing, but their entire business model depends on overpaid, useless public servants.


That's just automation in motion. Instead of managers watching you, the company will spy on you with your work issued device. It's just an example of white collar gigs being automated.


It would make a lot of sense for companies to just mass fire these people since it would save money. Unfortunately, as per capitalism, that money won't go to the employees actually creating value with their labor, it certainly would make things less shitty all the same.


Dilberts said this for years. Lol