By - making_memes_now
>Blames Rand for his mother's death without any evidence and *over the objection of his girlfriend, who had been with Rand the whole time and outright told him it wasn't true*.
The problem there is the Egwene talks to him after Rand learned Traveling and instead of saying that he couldn't do that 2 months ago she says I'm sure he didn't kill you're mother he loves Elayne. Not "I was in the room with him when we found out Morgase died."
Eh, even so, what's his counterargument there? "Well see a peddler who wasn't there told Elaida he did it and she seems to trust him. Good ol' Elaida- always showing good judgement.". IIRC aren't Gawyn and Elayne shown to question Elaida's judgement at least somewhat as early as EOTW? Like yeah, he sided with her in the tower coup, but only because Siuan had been taking risks with Elayne's safety and blatantly lying to him about it (one of the few dumb things he did which is pretty understandable). He obviously felt conflicted about it too given that he helped her escape.
But also: does _he_ know about traveling at that point? I apologize if I'm just misremembering, but I don't think that was common knowledge by that point. Because he definitely knows that Egwene has been with Rand for the past several months. Elaida is operating off of third hand information at best and Egwene not only knows him much better and can speak to his motivations much better, but has been around him the entire time, even if she doesn't specifically relate to him that she was with him when he found out.
Also, I find it difficult to believe this never came up off screen when they were dream-chatting. It's just a really weird thing for Egwene to shrug her shoulders and never bring up again: 'oh well, my boyfriend baselessly believes that my childhood friend and prophesied savior of the world murdered his mother in cold blood, which I have extremely high confidence he did not do. No need to share my compelling first hand information regarding that, after all- it takes all kinds!'.
*Pride fills me. I am sick with the pride that destroyed me.*
***I must kill him.***
Should've, could've, would've, pal.
You seem down LTT Bot. We need to find you a pretty woman to hum about.
*Hums softly & tugs earlobe*
There we go. You feel better, buddy?
You forgot that Egwene is a horrible person.
Rand: hello Egwene. Amyrlin, nice, it suits you. How’ve you been?
Egwene: you better be here to submit to my dominance.
*Trust is death*
That’s some nice sentience you’ve got there, Lews
Don't play innocent with us, madman!
Lol, fair point
Gawyn knowing/not knowing about Travelling is a moot point in this case (he does, though, by the time he ran into Egwene). He heard the rumor first from a peddler while he was with the WT delegation, and of course said peddler passed it as gospel truth because nobody's interested if you admit it's "just a rumor." Then he asked an Aes Sedai, and the AS confirmed it. He'd been raised all his life with the knowledge that Aes Sedai can't lie, and by they'd done their best to convince him they couldn't be wrong either.
Then by the time he ran into Egwene he *did* know that Rand had, for sure, been in Caemlyn. And, unfortunately, her having been around Rand for so long just meant Rand had had the whole time to brainwash her. Gawyn was carrying a heavy confirmation bias from the beginning, and the "evidence" against Rand just had too much of a head start for Gawyn to see past.
I 100% agree that what is happening is largely a product of motivated reasoning due to Gawyn’s jealousy (both of Rand being the hero in the story and because until the dream boning he believes to an extent that Egwene is still into Rand). I’m just accentuating how obviously bad his reasoning is from an outside perspective.
That said I mean he did just help depose an Amyrlin, and has been around Aes Sedai and warders long enough to know they’re far from infallible. So while I completely agree that his original belief in that is understandable the determination with which he holds onto that belief in spite of its very weak evidentiary support to begin with an direct counter-evidence from a person he claims to trust and love, but on this thing basically pats her on the head and says “that’s cute, but no he definitely did it, I heard it from a bunch of people who weren’t there”. I know you’re right that it’s motivated reasoning, it’s just maddening from an external perspective because a Gawyn 10% more self aware or critically thinking Gawyn would never have fallen into this.
*Take what you can have. Rejoice in what you can save, and do not mourn your losses too long.*
Wasn't she *literally in the room* when Rand found out about Morgase? Like, she had SO MANY ways she could have told Gawyn that it wasn't Rand and she went with "UuU bby I swear it isn't true but idc let's just make out now"
Wasn't morgase not even dead?
Yes, but that is one thing I don’t hold against Gawyn. Everyone thought she was dead for sure except her little party and some of the whitecloaks.
Yup. That's why Gawyn is stupid.
I know, buddy, I know
In his defence, a random trader we never seen before or again was kind of confident Rand did it. He killed Hammar and almost broke the tower on less info
Gawyn: “I don’t like how the Amyrlin treated my sister and love interest, therefore it is perfectly rational to murder my mentors and eradicate any reliable source of information I have about my sister and love interest!”
That's true, Gawyn does have a habit of doubling down on his decisions and opinions regardless of new information. "Was I on the wrong side of the tower split? No, it's my sister, the love of my life, my teachers, and the Amyrlin (who was trying to protect the savior of the world) who are wrong!"
I have a headcanon that the random peddler who says this was actually Padan Fain. No evidence, I just think it’s fun and plausible because Fain lives to stir shit up and make Rands life harder.
Don't think Fain by that point in the books would've let Gawyn choke him out, which he does to the peddler. I like the idea, though.
Being infected by Fain's self-centered madness...would actually explain a lot of Gawyn's behavior for the rest of the series.
It's more likely that after the peddler said it, any number of the tower Aes Sedai he was traveling with for weeks at that point, manipulated him to solidify his beliefs.
*What you want is what you cannot have. What you cannot have is what you want.*
I love this sub so much.
The pattern is all about balance. Gawyn had to exist or everything would have been too easy without him screwing things up by accident.
He’s the anti-taveren in the book.
Even when he tries to do something good by “saving” Egwene from the tower or from that first round of bloodknives he seems to complicate matters. He can’t help it. It’s his destiny!
He's an anti-Ta'veren! That's great!
The jar-jar Binks of wot! Perfect!
Jar Jar helped legitimize Palpatine’s power…
Gawyn helped legitimize Elaida’s power…
Yup! Checks out!
***KILL HIM KILL HIM NOW***
So you’re saying Gawyn is secretly one of the forsaken? 🤔
*Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death…*
No, or course not! The forsaken at least try and have some kind of long term plan. Gawyn is a demented pinball bashing into things.
And the anti-Galad. The guy supposedly on the good side who’s kinda dumb and ignoble and has bad motivations. Galad, the guy supposedly on the bad side who still has good traits and intentions and listens to reason, even if it takes a hot minute.
Robert Jordan really didn't think much of born aristocrats. The rest of Gawyn's family can be infuriating as well, and the aristocrats who are not part of their family are often even dumber and less competent. Tuon's competent but also frustratingly arrogant and wrong-headed. What's really frustrating about Gawyn is that there's so much wasted potential there.
Lan is an exception among born aristocrats, but only because he was removed from the aristocratic environment as an infant. And of course the same does not apply to those who earn a place among the aristocracy such as Rand, Perrin, and Mat.
I thought Galad was good. Misguided, and too naive for how much of the world he'd seen by the time he joined the Whitecloaks, but a good person, highly competent, and eventually a positive reformer for them.
Shame about the arm.
Pretty good for a Whitecloak. It’s funny how Elayne paints him as the bad guy and never really gets over it.
But don’t forget Galad also rebelled against his teachers at the White Tower. Then he joins the Whitecloaks even though they consider Elayne, like all other Aes Sedai, to be a Darkfriend.
It took the shocking treatment of his mother to change Galad’s allegiance to his superiors. If Gawyn had been given that information and met his mother he also might have seen the light.
Doesn't he at one point claim that the actual book at the center of the Whitecloak's ideology *doesn't say that* and that he doesn't believe it, either?
Sure but he has still sworn himself to the orgsnization. Clearly he doesn’t believe Elayne is a Darkfriend, but he’s working for people who do.
*Sometimes, pain is all that lets you know you're alive.*
Also, once he did decide to finally join Egwene, he did so by abandoning the Younglings...
Never trust a cheater
That decision is the one bit in all Gawyn's idiocy that actually kinda makes sense in context. Immediately prior, he had Aes Sedai straight up telling him that they could replace him as commander of the Younglings and turn them against him if they felt like it.
I don’t think he ever said this publicly, or should he have since his audience was predominantly young men, but Jordan, having been one, knew that young men are fucking idiots and he wrote them all that way.
Rand, Mat, and Perrin at least are only selectively idiotic, and balance it out by being smart in other areas. Gawyn is just pure, unadulterated dumbass.
Mat is smart because his head is full of older men’s memories.
Perrin has the collective wisdom of a billion wolves at his disposal.
Rand has… well, a 300 year old madman. Still better off than your average teenager.
Chaotic Stupid vs Lawful or Neutral Stupid
Gawyn is definitely lawful stupid, lol. That shit's like a creed for him.
*Your plans fail because you want to live, madman.*
I know there are people as idiotic as Gawyn in real life, I've met plenty myself, but that doesn't mean they don't piss me the fuck off, lol. Just reread the end of LoC and start of CoS last night, and holy shit does he infuriate me in those parts, telling Rand to his face at Dumai's Wells that he's going to kill him (as if Rand couldn't disintegrate him without even thinking) even when it's been made plain to him that Egwene, Elayne, and Min all believe Rand had nothing to do with his mother's death (which itself is fake news, lol), and then right after that choosing to continue serving Elaida (who it seemed like he always disliked) even though he knows she tried to have him and his men fucking killed! How fucking arrogant and incurious of a person do you have to be to continue believing your own bullshit narrative after having that much contradicting evidence rammed down your throat?
Anyway, rant over. Gawyn may be far from the most evil character in the series, but out of everyone "on the side of the Light," he's hands down the most insufferable jackass, and it only figures that Egwene would be in love with the man. It's kinda weird too, because he seems likeable enough during the first few books if a little cocky, but from the Tower split onward he just takes a massive shit all over himself and never cleans it off.
*Dead men should be quiet in their graves, but they never are.*
You forgot how he suspected Galina was trying to get him killed yet still helped her.
Hilarious! Now do Elaida.
*You must kill him before he kills you. Giggles. They will, you know. Dead men can't betray anyone. But sometimes they don't die. Am I dead? Are you?*
My head canon is he was under compulsion for a large part of the series.
It is the only way I can explain him putting off his vows to Elaine, backing Elaida (which is a black ajah plot,) believing Rand is evil regardless of anyone telling him differently, and other dumbshit ideas he has. He seems reasonable and laid back when we first meet him, and the few times we see him in the Tower... yet out of nowhere he is helping back a literal coup and refusing to go help his sister (who he has sworn to protect.) Just seems like an odd shift based on what we had seen prior.
***I told you to kill them all when you had the chance. I told you.***
I feel like one of the many aes sedai in is life would have mentioned seeing weaves of compulsion on him.. unless perhaps it was a forsaken who inverted the weaves? That might maybe could check out..
Whoops.. I said the F word, lol
He's the Yamcha of WoT.
Based on how people perceive gawyn I'd say that Jack Gleeson would be a perfect cast for him.
This guy almost lost them the last battle by nearly crippling the Amerlyn with his stupid prideful death
The frustrating things about gawyn could fill a book. Thankfully they haven't though, no one would read it.
Knocking him for the Rand thing bugs me. It was the most logical explanation of events. His mom disappeared around the same time that Rand conquered the city. It's far more likely that Rand killed her than she fled because she was so smitten she was letting a man take over her the kingdom.
*Where are all the dead? Why will they not be silent?*
Arguably he was justified in the initial use of the ring and had he taken it off and been done with it after it wouldn’t have been an issue…homeboi not only uses it again he adds another two just for kicks.
And he had no idea if that would even work! It could just as easily killed him by even putting the extra rings on for all he knew!
Aren't ter'angreal notoriously dangerous to use in unintended ways?
He doesn't have any info the rings will definitely kill him, does he? I agree it's dumb to just put it on and assume it will work or put on 3 and assume it will work better (if it did why didn't the assassin's wear 3?), but he doesn't do it *knowing* it will kill him, does he?
I’m almost certain he was at the briefing/conversation where it was mentioned the rings kill you. He had already pocketed the three without telling anyone, because he’s an asshole, but he learned they were fatal before putting all three on.
So yeah, he 100% knew he was going to devastate his wife in the middle of an apocalyptic war she was leading AND had strong reason to suspect that taking a triple dose of this death curse would just end him uselessly.
I think Leilwin straight up told him that "don't let your blood touch them, you will die"
Doesn't that briefing happen only amongst the seanchan before the raid? And someone replied staying leilwin mentioned it but I'm pretty sure she mentions it at the last battle after he already has one on.
Ok I looked it up. Leilwin learns Gawyn has a ring, specifically tells him that it is activated with blood, is extremely dangerous, can kill him and should absolutely not be activated. He tells her to NOT TELL EGWENE BECAUSE SHE’S SENSITIVE ABOUT THE ASSASSINATION so he doesn’t have to discuss what an absolute moron he’s being. He then uses this information to activate the rings.
You are a scholar, thank you.
I thought once you used the ring you were guaranteed death, I don't think that you can just take it off and be fine.
True, but had he restrained himself to that minimal use of the ring he probably would have survived the last battle, and might even have been able to be healed (I don't think the Seanchan ever experimented with Healing, so the effects of the rings might be reversible). Instead he puts on 3 rings to accelerate his death and rushes off to fight Demandred right in the middle of the last battle when he knows Egwene is extremely important to the fight and will be broken by his death.
Death is guaranteed but iirc the more you use it the more it accelerates that death.
I mean death is guaranteed anyway, so why not
To die at a time that wasn’t potentially world ending?
Death is *always* guaranteed. Why not jump off a cliff?
Needs to have his mother in the background looking perplexed the entire time.
He did kill 3 elite Seanchan commandos wearing stealth rings though, so that’s at least a little cool
Honestly, I can't hate Gawyn. Not because he hasn't done anything worth hating, but because in my mind the guy is a paper bag being dragged through a maelstrom. He was always just going to be there for the ride, regardless of if he actually did anything of significance.
No I don't hate him, because just like if a 4 year old comes up to you in a supermarket and starts talking shit you can just brush them off. He's just that inconsequential in my mind.
Edit: I made that more edgelord than I had intended
Gawyn is almost universally hated, by some even more than Elaida herself. In a world where every man is a stupid woolheaded piece of choss, Gawyn takes the academy award for worst supporting male. My pick for female is Egwene. After the fall of the stone, she is insufferable.
Egwene is insufferable from the second she's introduced. Rand is freaking out about the Myrdraal stalking him and his first thought when meeting the person who he assumes loves and wants to marry him is basically "can't bother telling her about this super important issue to me, because she won't believe me or care." And he was right.
*The Wheel of Time and the wheel of a man's life turn alike without pity or mercy.*
Oh joy, we cycled through Cadsuane and now it's own to Gawyn, and then we're back to Cadsuane again.
Taking this in order:
1. We the readers have an omniscient perspective. Gawyn does not. Gawyn has a mess of rumors that establish a few facts: Morgase is believed to have died sometime around the time Rand traveled to and conquered Caemlyn with Aiel and magic. About the strongest evidence he has that Rand didn't do it is Egwene's word, but she didn't personally see the events that lead up to it, which means he has no direct evidence either way. Just rumor, and weeks of Tower Trained Aes Sedai manipulating him as he traveled to Cairhein with Galina.
2. He didn't know that. He was starting to suspect. It takes a lot of mental effort to confront yourself with the full knowledge that you've fought, killed, and bled for a cause you no longer believe in. This was human, not clownish.
3. He largely did what he did because he thought it was in service to Elayne. And part of his duties are to stop her from going full retard. Which she did. When he realizes she's on the wrong side of the conflict, from his perspective, the rational thing for him to do is to be on the right side of the conflict, and try to mitigate the consequences of her actions.
4. (also 5). Lan did what was effectively the exact same thing: went on a suicidal charge against Demandred while he knew his wife, also bonded to him, was engaged in the most important battle of her life, and the fate of the world rested on her shoulders. Is Lan a clown? Or was he taking a calculated risk, that luckily for him, actually paid off? Ask yourself this: if Gawyn had succeeded, would you still call it a clown move, even though the reasoning underlying his decision was the exact same?