T O P

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HeyDune

1. You put your opinion across respectfully and articulated it well, and I think that’s nice. 2. Sorry I couldn’t hear you over these buff siblings blowing each other’s prostate into the immaterium


Inkedcells

Maybe you are to close to the material. I honestly havnt seen any incest stuff on this page.


theSultanOfSexy

This was my thought too. I'm not super deep into this fandom but I've been on this subreddit and Grimdank daily for about a year now and haven't seen Primarch shipping, much less involving the Emperor. Only homoerotic thing I see a lot is the Jojo custodes, and I'm 99% sure that's a reference to the "Emperor TTS Program" videos Grimdank is always on about.


Inkedcells

Jojo custodes are definitely from that they are straight pillar men from that


YoyBoy123

Likewise. I visit at least one warhamemr subreddit almost every day and have literally never seen what OP is talking about.


LargeProleSon

[me clicking on this post](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/839937309163388972/859552713981165578/matthew.jpg?width=383&height=436)


valarauca14

[me after clicking on this post](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/876/233/4c9.jpg)


ESKodiak

God, this sub is incredible.


Iron_Sheff

I can't believe front row seats to takes THIS hot are free Like, i don't give a rat's ass about anyone's cringey gay fanfics which i don't see nearly as much as he's implying. I'm going to throw out a baseless, shit stirring accusation and say he's projecting his burning desire to watch Russ break Magnus's back again


continued_loneliness

i want photos of you touching grass on my desk tomorrow


SirPotato_III

This made me ugly laugh, thanks.


ERE-WE-GO

> Isnt the implication of the emperor making a bunch of 'boyfriends' for himself but then calling them all his sons and literally having them start off as babies he planned to raise kind of fucked up? To me it gets kind of into alot of real negative stereotypes and tropes given to gay men all the time in the real world and in media everywhere There's a gay male stereotype about using genetic material from different sources and magic stolen from demon gods to create 20 demigods to perpetuate an endless genocide across the galaxy?


zrrion

Fellas is it gay to put your genetic material into 20 dudes


PleaseToEatAss

All human 40k lore is gay.


dabirdiestofwords

Today in "anything I dont like is a negative stereotype "


TheActualAWdeV

... OP is clearly referring to grooming here. The actual literal lore behind how Emp made the primarchs really does not come into it. edit: it's kinda like shipping professor Utonium with the powerpuff girls.


ERE-WE-GO

It is concerning that Prof. Utonium was just trying to make perfect little girls but Chemical X gave them powers.


PleaseToEatAss

Thank god for that or they wouldn't be able to fight him off. Also, making children in a lab is sus af


Featherbird_

Geppetto didnt give Pinocchio that nose for no reason 😔


TheActualAWdeV

Oh definitely. Strong mad scientist vibes, just good at disguising it.


Skagritch

But professor Utonium is functionally their parent I think. None of the primarchs grew up with him as a father.


Togetak

I think the point being made is the implication he made them to eventually blow their backs out is gross, which I guess it is, though it’s not something I’ve personally seen people saying


OnlyRoke

I literally have no horse in this race, because I don't care about slashfic or the Horus Heresy or 40k lore all that much. Doesn't stop me from adding to the comments :D In essence, yeah, maybe it is weird but.. at the same time who is harmed exactly? There is leftist behaviour that is unironically pretty fucked up, like the constant thirstposting over UwU Big Dommy Mommies, or OwO Femboys. That weird shit has real-life consequences whereby even supposedly progressive leftists treat dominant women, or soft boys as sex toys rather than people, masking it as "so progressive" because you're thirsting over a more masculine woman or a more feminine man. But who exactly is harmed by writing/taking part in weird Gay Space Incest stories about 10ft tall transhuman monster-hunks and their literal god-father? What's the harm done here? It's a thing that is very far-removed from reality. I find it way more troubling that progressive people constantly NEED to twist every healthy male friendship that doesn't involve angry alpha-male-grunting into gay fan theories, honestly. On the one hand people proclaim that men need to be kinder and more loving to each other, because toxic masculinity sucks, on the other hand whenever that happens in a show or movie it's immediately the basis for hundreds of steamy sex fantasies. I just don't see there being an issue with this in 40k, especially given how it's one way to depower the otherwise highly fascistic, "myth and heroism" bullshit that it otherwise is. Like, sure, it's very weird and not exactly healthy either, but I think there's little to no real harm done here. But then again, I have no idea how grody the fanfics get. If there are like literal grooming scenes or whatever then that's fucked up, but from my understanding it's mostly just people posting Pretty Anime Primarchs making googly eyes or whatever.


dabirdiestofwords

Not to be a dick but there was one point in there that stuck out as silly: Them starting out as kids making it bad. You do realize every gay persons boyfriend was a kid at one point? And the calling them sons thing was the opposite? In MoM book he says he didnt think of them as sons and that's why he called them by their numbers. They chose to cal him father... which people made wierd. The overall point? Yeah you ain't wrong its wierd.


Flowersoftheknight

Counterpoint: The problem with incest is, at its core, the power imbalance and the problem of grooming (Which is a specific type of power imbalance I suppose). This makes it impossible for true, unambiguous consent, even when all parties involved are adults. That unequivocally is to be condemned, yes. *However*, this problem of power imbalance does simply not exist between the Primarchs. They are all independent people, grew up and into adults fully independent of each other, with no possibility of grooming or anything of the sort even remotely in reach. They all hold the same rank (except for Horus, I guess?), and noone except him really has power over the others - and even Horus barely does for how much everyone keeps disobeying him without real consequences. For all intents and purposes, the Primarchs are brothers in name and spirit only. They have different ethnicities, ffs! There is zero family resemblance between the lot of them, and while the Emperor used his genes as a basis for all of them, he messed around with them to get them to where they are. A lot (Including that whole extra organ stuff he doesn't actually have himself...). And like, this is fiction. And noone who writes about this kinda stuff thinks this is in any way a *healthy* relationship. They are very much aware Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus are *not good for each other*, and that all of this is a bit messed up (They are all very messed up people, after all). Contrary to thirsting over female characters, there is no real-world opression that gets mirrored or reinforced by this. It's just people having fun with straight authors being unaware of how goddamned gay their dialogue sounds when viewed without heteronormativity goggles - and fandom doing its usual thing of not having any interesting female characters, or at least only caring about the male ones. Of which there are much, much more, much more fleshed out. (...forreal, I know like one prominent female character from the Heresy? There must be more, but... not that I'd have heard of any...) Yes, if you bring the Emperor into it, it rears its ugly head again. But... I've never really seen anyone *do* that? Like, not in the sense he'd be participating. Only in the "why would you be surprised they'd turn out gay with this setup" way. It's always just the Primarchs amongst each other. And as gross as you may find it, there is no inherent power imbalance between siblings, least of all ones that didn't grow up together.


Content-Boss

I wrote up a similar comment but I found yours to be much better and hit off most of the same beats so I’m gonna boost yours instead. I also wanna add that Sigmarxism being progressive means we’d talk about this topic (like we are now) more than we’d “crack down on it”. It’s not a hallmark of progressivism to attack sexual deviancies unless they’re harmful so idk what Op was thinking.


MasterOfEmus

Seriously, OP is hardcore assuming that incest is, across the board, an unacceptable and incorrect act. We have a historical taboo around it for a variety of reasons, but we don't really have conclusive reasoning for which its universally wrong. Most often cited is the potential for genetic abnormalities. This is usually exaggerated (usually takes generations of inbreeding for such issues to consistently surface, and some lineages are theoretically less susceptible due to having fewer such recessive traits). Its also no longer a serious reasoning when it comes to relationships that won't have children, or those between adopted/significantly genetically different family, all of which apply to the primarchs. Next best reason is probably the power imbalance, but that's largely an issue with children of different ages, affected by parental favoritism, and doesn't tend to apply to family that didn't directly grow up together. Once again, good reason (which is *not* strictly diegetic) that primarch shipping is A-OK, if kinda cringe. Third would be inter-familial and -tribal power exchange. Its historically healthy to mix with other tribes or families to extend influence, so we have a good reason to try to marry well enough outside our own inner circle. But that's not a strict ethical reason, more a strategic/evolutionary explanation, and its also the principle most often broken, just ask major imperial dynasties of egypt, japan, russia, and our friends the hapsburgs. Also, once again does not apply to Primarchs, who are wildly different in temperament and sphere of influence. Thanks for reading my ted talk


Flowersoftheknight

>Most often cited is the potential for genetic abnormalities. This is usually exaggerated That line of argument also has a very different problem with it: If we disallow people from having kids due to the potential for genetic abnormalities and disabilities... a much more impactful step would be to forbid *disabled* people from having kids. Which leftists especially but even liberals hopefully would *recoil* from even *thinking about*, cause like, that's literally nazi-level eugenics. So... if we don't adress this (and I do wanna stress we *shouldn't*, disabled people have as much a right to live and for self fullfillment, including offspring, as the rest of humanity)... We *kinda* can't argue that siblings shouldn't have kids because of a higher risk of disabilities and such without being locially and ethically inconsistent. (This does not wipe away the other problems with incest, naturally; if they occur in a specific case)


[deleted]

[удалено]


Flowersoftheknight

For siblings that grow up together: older siblings often have some part in raising the younger ones if the difference is big enough; parents might pity them against each other which could create a power dynamic; and there is the chance for some really unhealthy attachement styles which might muddle with consent as well (like what is imho is explored in Jaimie/Cersei in a song of ice and fire). But yes, the consent problem is not inherently there in relationships between siblings. I do agree, I just phrased it weirdly. What I *meant* was that in situations where the power imbalance persists, there cannot be unambiguous consent.


Imnotthebreakman

Bruh


PleaseToEatAss

Umm, Orks don't have sex. And Orks are the only ones that matter.


WhapXI

I think this would make a really good copypasta. I tend to think that for one thing, people really don't see them as actually being related to each other. Not only that but they're campy bio-engineered demi-gods with magical powers who grew up all across the galaxy to lead legions of supermen against alien hordes. I don't think they really even register as human beings, let alone a human family unit. I don't imagine too many people who make jokes about the primarchs dating do it to make some gross-out incest joke. Obviously you see the incest connection and are grossed out by it, but I'm pretty sure most people just do it out of a sense of LGBT claim-staking. Declaring the Primarchs as gay is basically praxis. So yeah, you're not exactly wrong. But I think what you're doing is overthinking about the meaning or implications of other people's dumb jokes. And also, I dunno, writing a whole essay to scold a community probably isn't really gonna do much except make people think you're waaay to invested in something kinda dumb.


Psychic_Hobo

You know what, go for it, I'm always willing to hear an argument out. This actually does remind me of that cautionary post a while back about how relentlessly sexualising and thirstposting about Resi 8's Lady D can come across as objectification under the guise of sex positivity, which is a concern I do have sometimes about various medias (got a few downvotes on another post about Skyrim NSFW mods with a few takes of mine...)


genteel_wherewithal

tbh linking this to RL issues feels like even more of a reach than the folks getting steamed about fanfic writers shipping Loki and alternate universe Loki being ‘selfcest’ and thus deeply problematic


Setitov

What the fuck? Is this a copy pasta?


Artemis-Crimson

I have a couple of points, first off: The emperor made giant men kinda gay jokes are nnnnot about the primarchs so much as the thunder warriors custodians space marines trend? He made a lot of giant men and the primarchs are the least of it honestly Also it’s, 40k? It’s sort of silly to go yes this incest is the real problem here in my warhammers don’t mind the fact that textually the whole series is just awful things being done by awful people in absurd amounts or the meta problem of Nazi’s popping up and getting their sticky fingers in it nope, it’s totally gay people joking about this hyper-masculine shitshow Third, yoooou really truly don’t need to tell people is morally reprehensible, it’s just pointless wank, I promise that the people making those jokes aren’t a giant gang of evil sex fiends, again, this is warhammer, we very clearly do not agree with things we find entertaining or else this would be, like, the genocide squad?


krorkle

> ... but some people seem to act like this is a genuine reading they have of 40k and that its somehow a positive one... Do they? Are you sure you're not confusing ironic devil's advocacy and meme-poisoning for sincerity?


Featherbird_

Alls this post did was bring the incesters out of the walls. Incesties? Incers? Incels? Intercessors?


communistthrowaway69

If you know or care what a primarch is... Go outside


MercymerSnoot

While a snappy response, I think this is a rare miss, CT69. Comes off way too snarky and dismissive when OP *has* a point.


communistthrowaway69

I said it this way because I'm in the process of erecting a 500 ft neon sign that reads *Who care* If you find that dismissive, let me remind you that I'm being asked to consider whether joking about Space Nazis being gay might be interpreted via diegetic essentialism as incest which, via 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon, is somehow supposed to matter to some human being, somewhere. If you are taking that notion seriously, you need to log off. For, like, a week.


LettersfromEsther

Except its not just about these specific gay space nazis. Incest shipping is common in just about every fandom with characters that are related to each other, and beyond that, incest jokes and porn are as common as dirt, and yet there is a real reluctance to engage with the topic in any serious way- when its a real thing that happens to real people, so I'm not sure why you find it so unbelievable that it could matter to a person


OnlyRoke

I think incest is both way more popular and way less popular than we all think and I do think it is closely tied to us humans feeling lonely and isolated as fuck. I think more people are secretly into the idea of incest than anyone cares to admit, but I also do think that the amount of people desiring this FOR REAL is extremely small. These days we are all extremely isolated and depressed. Capitalism is getting to us all and dating has become nightmarishly difficult in many places. Committment is rare. Partner Choice is both overwhelmingly massive and shockingly small. Loneliness is what ensues. I think the surge of incestual fanfic/porn (and even the "daddy/mommy" name-calling during sex) has to do with everyone being able to relate to familial dynamics. We all have families and they are usually low-upkeep human relationships. You have to invest way less time and energy to HAVE these types of relationships in your life, as opposed to having friends or a partner. So it is a very easily understandable, very familiar concept that is played with here. Fantasizing about some porn lady/lad being your mother or your sister supplants that lady/lad into a role that you can grasp. You're showered with affection simply for "being related". The fantasy is not unlike the "childhood friend turned sexual" one, or the "girl next door" archetype. Fictional people in real-world roles that are very easy to grasp, because you have had first hand experience with this, and you're a lonely person who seeks companionship and love, but you either don't want, or don't know how to establish actual real world relationships. So you flee into sad fantasies. As for "but why gay incest?!", I think that just boils down to gay fanfiction being immensely popular for a myriad of reasons. Not only are queer teens able to explore different dynamics in a safe way when they read a Sherlock/Watson fic for example, but these dynamics are also always extremely detailed within the story of a property. How much has Captain America talked to his "big love" Peggy Carter over the course of quite literally ten movie years? They literally just talked to each other for an hour in the first movie. But she's the One. Comparatively, how many emotional, harrowing scenes have had Steve and Bucky together where their friendship and love for each other was detailed and presented in dramatic fashion? Like two or three entire movies. One dynamic is extremely explored, the other.. isn't, because screenwriters just ASSUME heteronormativity. "She is a girl he is a boy, they love each other. Why? You know why. Fill in the blanks." Anyways, I don't think any of that can really "excuse" (nor should it) anything pertaining real-life fucked up instances of people being groomed by strangers or family alike. I hope it goes without saying that this shit is fucked up. I do also hope that this inane ramble managed to shine some light on what I think the cultural/social motivations behind these trends are tho.


LettersfromEsther

That was a good ramble, a lot of good analysis. I hadn't considered a lot of this, this was illuminating. Thanks for also sincerely engaging with the discussion. I also hope it goes without saying that I wasn't condemning queer fanfic writers, especially young ones. I don't think that incest shipping is inherently bad or harmful- but I think that without awareness of the reality of the issue it can lead to some flippancy. I have actually read some incest shipping fanfic that does go into the issues and complexities. I think you're spot on in your analysis about how capitalist alienation leads to a lot of those fantasies without the real desires, but I think its missing a dimension. I've observed that one of the ways people react so strongly against the notion of incest (and probably why there's all that displacement with 'step-siblings' and such in porn) is because familial love is seen as like holy and sacred above other forms, and sexual love is seen as somehow lesser than it, probably due to puritan culture. So looking at a family member sexually is seen as disrespectful in addition to all the other issues. But I also think that capitalism produces alienation not just in society but within families, and the nuclear family model is very isolating and alienating, and extremely hard to leave for most people, and so is rife for people being denied real, healthy connection- the desire for which could manifest into attraction. Even if they don't actually end up being attracted to their siblings, like you said, they can still want a greater degree of intimacy with those they have close proximity with- especially in families that lack real affection. Maybe that's not how it actually goes, but from your analysis it would make sense. Capitalism infests everything of course.


OnlyRoke

Oh yeah, I didn't think you were condemning fanfic writers or anything. In the end it is always just fiction written by, mostly, teenagers who are still figuring out what's what, or by adult writers who are intrigued by different relationship concepts. One thing I do think that we lefties do (same with salivating over Femboys or dominant women) is we also tend to immediately sexualise any male friendship into a gay romance. In and of itself it's not a harmful thing, but it does feel VERY weird when we keep saying "Toxic Masculinity is harmful. Men should be kinder to each other." in one moment and then the very next thing we do is write thirsty fanfic about Sherlock and John, or the Winchester Brothers, or Steve and Bucky, pounding each other senseless, because "they're so gay for each other". Like.. way to alienate the straight guys who wanna be more open and soft to their friends? But in the end, I understand the desire to create gay fiction when most fiction's "gayness" is fucking laughable like Star Wars' first "queer couple" not being Finn and Poe (who get matching-ethnicity girlfriends by the end of it, lmao) but two random lesbian Rebels wayyyy in the background of some big celebration scene kissing each other. Like.. yeah of FUCKING COURSE people would rather write Poe and Finn as a couple, because they have actual stuff going on and would be a relevant pairing to queer kids. Not this rainbow capitalism bullcrap. About incest, yeah, I do think there's some element of sacredness to it. For as prevalent as the incest fetish seems to be these days, very rarely does it ever look like there are ANY desires to be with, well, actual family. It's all kink, all a veneer. Like, I'm sure there are actual people who want to be intimate with their real life family? But I feel like the vast majority of people into the kink aren't remotely interested in their own family. I mean, personally I'm not much for that whole kink so I can't talk about that, but I think it really boils down to wanting to see a somewhat authentic, relatable depiction of love and affection? Like, I've noticed that my own searches for porn videos will almost always lead to actual couples doing amateur things, where you can feel the affection, rather than some glossy high-production big budget thing. That usually just feels like an empty flesh-parade to me, whereas amateur videos feel way more authentic and loving. Maybe that's another shade of this whole kink? Getting a few glimpses of real human interaction rather than the fake things we usually see in overproduced porn? And yeah, I'd definitely tie that to Capitalism having alienated all of us. How I can tie that back to Gay Space Hunks Doing An Incest? I can't really say. But to me it just boils down to a mix of basically NO female characters in 40k, as opposed to the overwhelming amount of novels about guys, and just a desire to humanize these obvious monsters by showing them to have love and affection for each other that sometimes goes, hashtag, sexual. I don't think anyone actually wants to further a.. gay.. incest..groomer..agenda.. about hunky thousand-year-old space dictators doing the hanky-panky, who just happen to be vaguely related via Space Magic Science, but they look literally nothing alike. The discourse over incest and gay fanfic etc. is good and valid, imho, but the discourse over Gay Primarch-shipping feels kind of vapid to me, unless there is somehow a big community of thirsty weirdos who are REALLY into "Dad Emperor Teaching Young Boy Sanguinius" fics, where it's clear that the entire thing just boils down to actual underaged grooming and other nasty stuff. Then, yeah, valid fucking discourse and an issue that needs to be addressed, but most of the "Gay Primarch" stuff I have seen on this sub is just harmless "hunky anime drawing of blushing Sanguinius and Lorgar" or whatever, which feels pretty harmless to me.


communistthrowaway69

Ok, so we just made up a problem that doesn't exist in this sub, to talk about a hypothetical thing that's also not a real problem in some other fandom, and that no sane person should give a shit about, in a *game that's about galactic genocide.* This is several orders of magnitude above "inventing someone in your head and then getting mad at that person."


MercymerSnoot

I'm sure to remember this argument when you get up in arms over Phil Kelly writing Tau lore or any other issue you are passionate over, as "it's a game about galactic genocide" can as well applied on those matters.


communistthrowaway69

There are clear parallels between Kelly's writing and anti communist brainwashing against AES, which is the only reason anyone argues about it here. This is... Literally less than nothing. Not only is it diegetically essentialist, it's arguing across interpretive lines. You're trying to say people joking about primarchs, which rarely or never happens here and hasn't happened recently, is technically an incest joke because test tube Nazi babies might technically be slightly related, which might technically make it incest, which therefore makes it just like incest, which therefore means the non shipping actual joke is endorsing incest, which therefore means it's exactly as bad as real world sibling to sibling gay incest, which is exactly as bad as any actual damaging form of incest? Did I follow that chain of reasoning right? So the "problem," quite fucking literally, is mistaking something people rarely or never joke about for an actual shipping, and digging into pointless idiotic lore to find a way to make it incest (even though it isn't), and then *forcing* that idiotic interpretation (that, again, no one actually made) into a "problem" that *literally does not exist.* Fuck all the way off.


MercymerSnoot

Son, don't Ben Shapiro this. You purposefully ignore that OP (and which I also mentioned earlier!) not only speaks of this sub but the community as whole...where it does happen. OP was pretty clear their post is also a vent about fandom culture in general where, surprise surprise, it does happen. And again, that is a valid discussion to have. I haven't actually said anything about how much with OP I agree myself, just that they should not be dismissed and that they have valid points which is why your aggressive tone is surprising. Of course, whether you want to misinterpret the post to be able to dismiss it - even if it includes dismissing anyone who even remotely agree with any point mentioned within - is up to you, but it doesn't make it intellectually honest. Again, that's your imperative and not skin off my back! Just, at least deal with it in good faith rather than misinterpretation to more easily dismiss it.


communistthrowaway69

Stop inventing things to be mad about so you can pretend like arguing against them makes you a good person. [Leave that shit to the losers on Twitter.](https://i.imgur.com/1pvDyfF.png)


MercymerSnoot

Again, nah. I know my own moral value and alignment as a person, I don't need to pretend anything. Besides, according to my beliefs the only actions that matter are the silent ones - those that only the eyes Above sees. I have nothing to gain by posting here - I know the silent rules of this sub and what it comes to name power and posse, and yours is much higher than mine. Regardless of argument or way of presenting said argument, pals back pals. It's just how it is. I'm honestly a bit confused at your continued aggression. I've never even stated my personal take on this matter, only hoping OP isn't dismissed outright, but here it goes: They had some valid points but muddled it with some odd memeable takes, but I can empathise where they come from and I know some people have easier triggers than others - I'm not going to speculate about OP's life, but I want to think I understand where they're coming from. I guess the biggest disappointment stems from that we've seen arguments in nerd circles the past years that can be kneejerk-dismissed away easily - "Orcs are racist? Dwarves are anti-semitic? Lol its just fantasy tale about destroying a magic ring, go touch grass". Honestly, hearing about those discussions without reading the original argument probably had me kneejerk-dismiss it - at least internally - before reading through the posts they originate from. I think that's something, that base respect, even if you end up disagreeing with it (and in this particular topic, I ended upvoting multiple "I can see where you come from, but I disagree" comments. Honestly, only reason I commented was because he got rudely dismissed). It's honestly my biggest gripe - the OP deserves at least that. We get a hundred "Why do people hate Farsight/post Ogors" type of posts that the FAQ answers yet they gain at least a modicum of respect. I think OP, regardless of how "twitter brain" the take might be, deserves at least that.


LettersfromEsther

People do absolutely ship the primarchs though. That's mainly what I was talking about.


communistthrowaway69

Who. Fucking. Cares? Go away.


LettersfromEsther

Why should no sane person give a shit about it? For the hundreth time, incest happens, in the real world, a lot. Fiction is often how we engage with difficult and morally questionable things. Therefore the way people use the dynamic of incest in their own engagement with fictional characters is worthy of discussion and even criticism especially when there are a million examples of incest being used as a punchline or shipping or honyposting fuel and barely any serious consideration of it except to condemn others morally for making fictional content with it. I expected backlash to my comment, but I thought it would take the form of objecting to the points I made, not this really aggressive dismissal where you seem so affronted that I engaged with the topic at all. Because no, these problems aren't hypothetical, not in this fandom and not in others.


paintpotkin

You probably have a point OP, but can someone please explain to me what “incest shipping” is?


etapollo13

Same


Psychic_Hobo

So, just in case you don't know what regular shipping is, it's when people see two fictitious characters (and in some cases not always fictitious) and desire them to be romantically involved. This can be as simple as just wanting them to be involved, or straight up genuinely believing it. One example would be seeing Steve Rogers and Bucky as a couple. Usually it's derived from seeing multiple 'canon' scenes of the characters interacting closely, and given that a lot of heteronormative media will assume two dudes/girls hanging out can never be gay but if a guy and a girl talk for one minute they must get together and bang, it often leads to more scenes of interaction between them, which tends to fuel a lot of gay 'ships', as it were. It's not all gay though, as there's plenty of straight shipping that happens. Incest shipping is when the characters are related, simply put. So OP is referring to instances of people wanting two Primarchs to get it on, as they are genetically related. Shipping is crazy common in a lot of if not all fandoms. Whole fanfictions get written about it. A lot of it is also due to fandoms being a refuge for queer young people, who're usually hornier than most due to not having come out of the closet, or found a partner because there aren't many other queer people in their area, or just plain not figured themselves out yet.


paintpotkin

Thanks a bunch for the thorough clarification, comrade🙏


LettersfromEsther

First off, thank you for being gutsy enough to post this. Because its important, and I think important in every fandom. I haven't read the original posts that prompted you to write this, but I have some thoughts on the general topic. Thoughts I don't normally vocalize, so here goes. I think the reason for what you're talking about is something I'll call 'defensive distance'. I'd argue that the lightness in talking about incest and incest shipping among fictional characters is a way of displacing discomfort and making it more palatable to people who are terrified of sincerely considering the topic and its implications, as well as denying any of that serious interest or consideration of it even when its clearly there. Incest is one of the modern world's worst kept secrets. There's a society-wide taboo against its practice and discussion, most people avoid ever even mentioning it, and yet, as you note, incest shipping is common. Incest porn is common. Incest jokes are common. Incest, as in the real world practice as well as incestuous attraction in general, is also not rare. Especially among families with abusive dynamics, which its pretty hard not to read the Emperor and the Primarchs as. The Emperor did tailor and groom his 'children', but not to be boyfriends, but to be weapons of war. Once removed from their adoptive environments and in his 'care' they suffered an extreme lack of affection and connection from him, and a lack of human acknowledgement in general. It would make sense for them to seek it in each other, especially given their isolation and inability to relate to anyone who's not a primarch. But people are scared of that because it means considering that incest in the real world exists and has reasons for existing. (this isn't to say that its not bad of course, as another commenter pointed out incest can never really be consensual) I'm not saying that everyone who ships incestuous pairings or makes jokes about it is secretly into incest. Obviously that is not true, although a lot more people probably are into it than would ever admit it. I'm saying that the shipping and jokes seems to betray a genuine fear of considering it seriously and having any sincere interest in it, because the actual thing is complex and frightening to think about and take seriously. But taboos generate their own interest so it inevitably is. That's why incest porn is one of the most popular porn categories by far, but the prevailing form it takes is the stereotypical 'step-siblings' and 'step-parents' because it adds that displacement. Oh it's not 'full' incest because they're not blood related. They're step siblings. They're adoptive siblings. They were engineered in test tubes and raised by different adoptive families. Etc etc... because that doesn't take seriously or explore the weight and impact of incest and the dynamics that gives rise to it, and how often it happens. Outside of the context of fiction, look at the extreme commonality of jokes about people from Southern USA marrying/having sex with/having kids with their cousins, using incestuousness as a crass shorthand for 'bad' or 'stupid' or 'defective' which has some seriously eugenicist and classist implications because it completely ignores the context and isolated conditions which led to there being a prevalence of people marrying cousins in quite a few rural areas in the first place. Now, it might be tempting to say 'who wants to seriously consider the dynamics and implications of incest when just doing the fictional equivalent of mashing their dolls together going 'now kiss'? And to that I'd say, despite the displacement that is common in the extreme, incest is a real thing that real people experience, and is more common than people think, and is also a lot more complex and serious than just two characters that happen to be siblings banging and/or dating as if they weren't siblings- so I think that if someone's going to write an incestuous relationship, they should consider it a bit more seriously than usually gets done and not just reduce it to the butt of a joke, especially not jokes that perpetuate damaging stereotypes about queer people, particularly gay men, as you rightfully point out. And I don't know if anyone has ever written shipping fics between the Emperor and any Primarch, and I really hope they haven't, but if anyone does, they better consider the severity of sexual abuse because 'parental incest' can never be anything else. I don't think the jokes and shipping are because people don't think or know that incest is bad. They just don't want to think about the topic seriously.


communistthrowaway69

> First off, thank you for being gutsy enough to post this. Because its important, and I think important in every fandom. *Is it though?* And *was* it, though?


redheadstepchild_17

People be acting like this person just posted a disertation on the implications of incest porn in society and not just a thousand words to say "incest jokes gross me out and you're a bad person if you don't care about my feelings." Unless the OP is trolling, in which case bravo, absolute masterclass.


MercymerSnoot

I'm amazed by the amount of dismissal you're doing on this topic, you're making people think OP hits a bit too close at home if you keep dismissing them without addressing the issue at all.


communistthrowaway69

*There is literally no issue. This hasn't even happened on the sub.* This post is a strong candidate that the sub has failed in its mission and should be deleted entirely.


MercymerSnoot

Even if we forget OP wasn't merely talking about this sub but the fandom at large, there's was a post a few days ago that I think OP is reacting to. I do find it curious that this subreddit, who had mods take a stance on "Oh wowie vampire mama" posts suddenly gets this defensive and dismissive when the same logic is paired on hornyposting over incest.


communistthrowaway69

No, there wasn't. I went to go look specifically because I was wondering what prompted this. And no one is horny posting over primarchs! At *best,* it's done ironically like once every other month. And only an absolute diegetic essentialist could have the internet mind rot to see people who aren't brothers being "incest." For fuck's sake I am not being dragged into this fucking *nonsense.* Go clean your brain.


MercymerSnoot

Tut tut. No need to get heated over this CT - and the fact you do says a lot about you. The beaten dog barks the loudest, as they say.


communistthrowaway69

"I took a shit on the floor and now you're mad about it, that says a lot about you."


MercymerSnoot

Nah mate, I don't know why this discussion brings such an anger in you, but you could as well have replied to OP and explain your POV rather than aggressively dismiss it. I do think you're purposefully belittling something that neither warrants such a strong emotional reaction (as OP was not aggressive) nor deserves to be ignored. They've laid out their case thoroughly, it's not a lazy bait. Rather, you're the one who come in with the lazy bait. At least address OP directly rather than taking your anger out on others.


communistthrowaway69

How do you politely explain to someone that they have full on Twitter brain, that they've just posted the dumbest thing you've ever read, that they're everything you hate and that everything they've said goes against any post you've ever made? If you can figure out how to explain that to OP, be my guest. Otherwise, I'm just here to laugh at what is maybe the worst post ever made to this sub, and being very annoyed that anyone is taking it seriously. I'm saving the "Like, the primarchs all started out as kids, didnt they? Isnt the implication of the emperor making a bunch of 'boyfriends' for himself..." as copy pasta for later.


LettersfromEsther

>And no one is horny posting over primarchs! You did not seriously just say that, like it doesn't happen much on this subreddit but in the fandom as a whole, come on, its everywhere And as pointed out in OP, how are they not brothers? They're made by the same parent, share genetic material, and oh yeah, work together, fight together, have really strong bonds and call each other brother and see themselves as sons to the same father


LettersfromEsther

In my view, yes, because I've yet to see a fandom with shipping that doesn't have at least one incest ship among it, and I rarely see serious discussion or consideration for the implications of it except to call people immoral for indulging in it, as if its just another questionable porn genre and not a real thing that real people experience far more commonly than anyone likes to think about or acknowledge, which was the point of my comment.


communistthrowaway69

Space Nazis? Sure, cool with it. Joke about them being gay? Have you considered you're doing an incest? I am very smart.


LettersfromEsther

This would only work as a response if this subreddit wasn't at least 60% talking about the real world implications of being too cool with fictional space nazis, and if I was equating jokes about them being gay to 'doing an incest' which I am not- that is a total misreading of both my comment and the OP.


communistthrowaway69

What the fuck are you even talking about at this point? Literally, lay out in less than ten words how joking about primarchs being gay is even *related* to incest, keeping in mind you'd have to be the biggest fucking dork to even try to say they're related. This is next level diegetic essentialist horseshit.


LettersfromEsther

Quoth the OP: >Also related are the common jokes I see here and other places about 40k being filled with homoerotic subtext because the emperor made a bunch of ripped dudes in a lab. I think as jokes thats kind of fine, but some people seem to act like this is a genuine reading they have of 40k and that its somehow a positive one when really the whole thing falls apart and gets very weird and creepy if you start to actually think about it. Like, the primarchs all started out as kids, didnt they? Isnt the implication of the emperor making a bunch of 'boyfriends' for himself but then calling them all his sons and literally having them start off as babies he planned to raise kind of fucked up? To me it gets kind of into alot of real negative stereotypes and tropes given to gay men all the time in the real world and in media everywhere, and literally the last thing 40k needs is even more of that. I never said, and they never said, that joking about the primarchs being gay is on the same level as incest, real or fictional. What OP said was that there can be an unfortunate intersection between those jokes and some unfortunate stereotypes. My comment was mainly about shipping, and how that and jokes about incest are used as displacement to avoid seriously considering an uncomfortable subject that happens in real life more than we like to think. Also 'ten words or less'? Do you know who you're talking to?


CheGuevesa

No one on this sub cares about primarchs. Delete your account.


doctorpotatohead

I'm going to preface this by saying not only am I not into incest content, I'm against all hornyposting (It's embarrassing and I'm too introverted/Catholic to engage in it). An interesting thing about fan culture is the way people immerse themselves in it and draw identity from it. When you aren't actively engaging in your hobby, you're thinking about your hobby, and you want other parts of your life to include your hobby. For many people, this is going to also include sexual fantasies about your hobby (in the specific case of Warhammer you don't even need to go looking on porn sites, the front page of this sub and r/grimdank probably has a few painfully horny memes right now). The trouble is the narrative of Warhammer typically doesn't discuss sexual topics except to condemn them as alien/daemonic behavior. Added to that the issue that the most prominent characters are all men and related and you can see why there might be a larger amount of incest shipping in 40k than other settings. This is just me speculating but I think this also comes along with more adults consuming content designed for children (Disney/Pixar movies, Comic book movies, Star Wars), or at least stuff designed to also be safe for children. A lot of these things (Warhammer included) even have beautiful, perfectly sculpted people with sexy costumes that would trigger the horny part of your brain but goes entirely ignored in the content itself. Shipping and other sexual fan content is basically just there to fulfill a need for older consumers that aren't getting everything they want from the content itself.


Psychic_Hobo

Whilst I do think you need to come to terms with hornyposting existing (even if it can be a little cringe), you do have a point about there being issues with older consumers not getting everything they want from consuming content aimed at kids - I'd say the biggest issue there is that it leaves a lot of older consumers unable to recognise more quality content. I do get fed up with people who idolise certain franchises and act like it's the pinnacle of depth and storytelling, when it's clear that it's really not - it's just the only form of art they're willing to engage with.


Kay_bees1

Based tradcath continues to judge queer people, as normal. Nothing important to see here folks.


doctorpotatohead

About half of anything I write is not serious, I'm a typical raised-Catholic American so I have a St. Christopher medallion in my car but I don't go to church or anything. The part of being uncomfortable with horny posting is for real though, I would never have the nerve to be publicly horny online.


2spongee4u

*takes a long toke* see I try not to put too much brain power into people horny posting even if it's about incest, it's not worth getting into politics about what someone finds hot as long as they have an understanding of consent. And can't say I've seen much talk outside of horny posting and jokes.


YoyBoy123

Not to invalidate but I have been a serious fan for years, visit at least one warhammer subreddit or communtiy almost every day, and have literally never once seen what you're talking about. Where are you seeing these things?


Amnist

Tbf Emperor called them by their numbers before they got kinky and started calling him their Daddy. Also, given Big E plans towards Primarchs, I imagine them not really having sexual organs. He didn't want them to procreate, they don't really have sex drive. 40k lore is 99% asex/arom represention, let the rest of the people have fun with their ships and fanfics.