T O P
MrHawkeye76

Chzechoslovakia returned, nice


Sarl-3

Trans rights in Russia? Well, that's a surprise


V_es

Since 1972, legal and free. Not only in USSR/Russia, but actually in lots of modern countries, it is classified medically as a mental disorder with only cure being changing of sex. So if a person is struggling with their identity, they are “prescribed” surgery, which is free. For some weird reason, trangenders are not seen as something that is against religious/moral norms. People see it as a medical issue, and kinda not against it. It’s funny but I think if doctors gave official medical gay certificates to gays, Russians would stop being homophobic. Not only Russian people don’t see transgenders as “blasphemous” or “immoral”, transgenders can adopt kids and marry people, but gays can’t.


Tiagochaves47

Russia a lot of times is just a really weird place hahahaha


Sarl-3

That's so strange that it really had to be Russia lol Thanks for the info, 10/10 very interesting, would learn again


V_es

Every nation has their own mentality and perception of things. USSR was hard science driven, and being conservative doesn’t mean going against science (like it is in America now), it meant that when science says- you shut up. Science said that it is a medical condition that is successfully treated with sex change, so nobody said a thing. As far as I know, people born homosexual happens due to certain biological factors that were unknown at those times and it’s quite a recent discovery (I recall this being a reason the Pope accepted same sex relationships, because it was proven that people are born like that and can’t do anything about it), so most countries treated it like a perverted choice (like modern Japan for example), so there was no way to conclude anything. Unfortunately, while “cure” for transgender was sex change, gays suffered way more inhumane and horrible procedures to “cure” them, because the phenomenon was unclear and obscure.


Altrecene

No, the pope basically said that people should hate the sin and not the sinner


sad0panda

> So if a person is struggling with their identity, they are “prescribed” surgery, which is free. Yeah but the map clearly shows surgery *not required* for Russia which seems kind of not in line with the rest of your comment...


Oaker_at

Wich Country was it again that „handed out“ (mandated) free trans operations for gay people? Because gay is against god.


electricCharger1

What’s even more surprising is that IRAN of all places has a legal identity change (according to this map) I’m not sure if that was a mistake considering it’s a map on Europe but I could be wrong.


qwertyashes

Iran typically pushes homosexuals into the role of transgenders. As that is easier to mesh with their branch of Islam.


LentCrown

Just continue to bellieve in every West propoganda lol


MrHawkeye76

Yeah I also was suprised by that


LargeFriend5861

Bulgaria moment


HikariAnti

Hungary as well


paixlemagne

But Hungary is not that surprising


QuoD-Art

Bulgaria isn't either. We're a very conservative nation when it comes to LGBTQ+ and race stuff. People don't talk about it openly but most don't find it normal (talking about the older generations)


Ok_Adhesiveness_8500

Hungary is pretty based


SevenFingeredOctopus

My friend actually transitioned on his Bulgarian passport but it involved a lengthy, expensive court case and several hoops to jump through that could only be described as traumatic.


SlavnaHrvatska

Bulgaria strong 🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬💪💪💪💪💪💪💪💪💪


LargeFriend5861

Based


borkogot

Based


Ok_Adhesiveness_8500

Indeed.


Rukmadar

Indeed.


Belgian_Stella

Indeed


mr_aives

Whaat? The Vatican doesn't allow it??!


Euphoric-Ad5401

Yh the pope is Catholic ffs


Don_Camillo005

current pope is rather chill. but there is really no need for such a law in a country of 40 people witht he average age of 80.


Less_Likely

The current Pope is not chill so much as does the bare minimum of recognizing that we are human and not our “sin”. He and the church still regards transitioning as not compatible with being a Catholic in good standing, in other words, to have a trans identity and to express your gender is living in sin and not repenting.


Don_Camillo005

which is a step up from what it used to be. chill in the sense of toleration.


LanciaStratos93

As far as I hate the Vatican I've sadly to say he is more progressive than most of politicians right now.


TheBusStop12

Finland will likely change to dark blue I think. A citizens initiative to change the old 2002 law was sent to parliament last November and the Ministry of Social Affairs and Health was working on it's own proposal. Both of these were to be discussed this spring, but sadly this got delayed by the war in Ukraine and the NATO discussion, which took up basically the entire spring.


Mtfdurian

That would be about time, and nice of course. Being the last significant country of the former 'western bloc' to have these regulations means that a lot of transgender people have hardships with identification, even more so when 'passing', which I also had troubles with even in the Netherlands (mostly because of waiting times before diagnosis). It is not unheard of that adult people, pre-hormones do sometimes pass and can barely be clocked, while authorities do assume transgender people are always easily clockable. It has been mostly my botched 'male' puberty that somehow made me lucky, but also unlucky... Then authorities don't even believe you when they see the deadname and deadgender on your passport, usually accompanied with the old photo because getting a new passport costs \~€80 in the Netherlands (differs per municipality) and still gives the same data problems. So I even got fraud accusations, just because I passed, and I don't want to out myself when I don't want to because some people still act horrible when they hear someone is transgender, including authorities. I heard in Finland it initially was about requiring to have had surgery which in practice now boils down to being 'infertile' by e.g. having hormones. That sounds horrible though. At least I was able to save my seeds officially being recognized as 'woman'. I hope that Finland also makes it possible to have the passport change before becoming infertile.


Darkwrath93

Surgery is not required to change sex in Serbia since 2019. only a year of hormone therapy and psychiatric approval Edit: Serbia only recognises sex, not gender in legal documents.


Archelon2

Iran is surprising..


Mtfdurian

It's their method of fighting against same-sex relationships. It's like blackmailing: "either of you gotta undergo sex change or we'll hang you both". A pretty awful way of having legalized sex change.


TiBiDi

Is it the same in Syria and Lebanon? I know these aren't religious regimes like Iran but i still find it hard to believe trans people are tolerated there


Redgrass_Survivor

Thankfully bashar al-assad is still in power, not islamist rebels. And since lebanon parliament is %50 christian, and its people are generally more cultured than the rest of the region I wouldn't be surprised.


paixlemagne

It's not like Christianity on its own improves the situation in the slightest. Do you know what's going on in Hungary?


JoemamaObama1234567

Holy shit,non Christians can't be cultured?


Valsineb

Welcome to the ethnonationalist morass that is /r/mapporn. If you came in here expecting more than a barrage of "based" comments from the local monkey brains, there's hope for you yet.


Redgrass_Survivor

You misunderstood. From the maronite christians in Lebanon, most of them are francophiles, some of them even called for france to come back and return the mandate during the civil war. So they try to import liberal democrat ideology from Europe. Also levels of conservatism differs from sect to sect. I'd say the sunnis are most conservative, shias less than them and christians least conservative ones. What islamic fundementalism is doing to Levantine region for 10 years is undeniable.


lem753

Lots of the middle east is more comfortable with trans people than with gay people because some religious figures see don't see it as challenging gender roles. The flip side of that is gay men are sometimes forced to transition, so very little good actually comes from it.


FF13LR

It’s forced transgender for lgbt. Being gay is punishable by death. You either lose your balls or die on the noose.


easwaran

I had known this about Iran, but was surprised to see data for Iran on a map that claims to be "in Europe"!


Barflyerdammit

Dammit, Lichtenstein...


LannMarek

Maybe none of the 37,500 people there ever asked? There are no exact statistics for the percentage of people who change genders but the best estimate is 1 in every 65,000 people, so that could genuinely be the case, as the population of Liechtenstein is about half of that.


Barflyerdammit

They've always wondered about Gustav, though. But really, you make a good point.


Sisyphuss5MinBreak

Russia on the progressive side? I'm quite surprised by that one.


GhastlyThough

Yes, you can be any of two official genders. That is one of the ways for same gender couples to merry.


hey_listen_hey_listn

>couples to merry Merry Christmas


Kikkervelf

Does this really happen?


Grouchy_Cattle6142

No. You can’t just legally change your sex if you are not diagnosed with gender dysphoria and have not received any treatment.


denn23rus

A bribe of 5,000 rubles ($80) and you get all the necessary documents within 0.001 seconds. Faster than in any country


PersonOfRandomness

One bakshish a day will get the documents your way


teddyg1870

Yeah, considering how much they hate gays, that's really suprising...


m00n5t0n3

Well if you think about it transitioning "cures" gayness so it works with their homophobia 🙄 instead of 2 guys = gay, one transitions to a woman and boom heterosexual couple


Advanced-Doughnut-56

When one stops drinking propaganda with full hands and actually discover reality.


Grouchy_Cattle6142

I’m not sure if the map is accurate. It seems like in Russia you have to get a medical confirmation of changing sex to change the documents. Also they introduced a bill in 2020 making this change more difficult but it seems like everyone forgot about it ever since and nothing changed.


easwaran

Does "medical confirmation" require surgery?


Dr__Juicy

What are the yellow dots


Konsticraft

Liechtenstein, Andorra, Monaco, San Marino and Vatican city.


ILoveSaabs

Countries that’ll otherwise be invisible on the map. City states.


Obascud

You'd usually expect to see an iron curtain divide in these kinds of issues. But, here we are.


alternatively-j

This doesn't really portray the difficulty in some countries than others


Wadeem53

Whats the point of having gender in the passport in the first place


Uebeltank

Identification. It's the same reason it includes a photo, height, and age.


montyxgh

Which passports have height?


Uebeltank

My Danish one does.


xXxMemeLord69xXx

Mine does


easwaran

How does having gender help identification when it's already got the photo? Is there anyone where you look at a photo of them, and then look at the person, and you say "I'm not quite sure whether you're the person in this picture", but then you see "male" and say "oh yeah, that's you" or "oh yeah, that's definitely not you"?


Uebeltank

Makes it difficult to use a passport of someone of a different gender.


easwaran

Doesn't the picture make it hard enough to use a passport of a different person, regardless of gender? How many people want to use someone else's passport, and know someone who is a good visual match, but the person is a different gender, and the gender of this person would be clear when they are physically in front of you, but not in the image in the passport? It seems weird to design a measure specifically to prevent this one weird trick, given that it's going to cause a lot more problems for people that just don't fit in with the average border guard's impression of what a male or female person looks like in person.


Uebeltank

> It seems weird to design a measure specifically to prevent this one weird trick, **given that it's going to cause a lot more problems for people that just don't fit in with the average border guard's impression of what a male or female person looks like in person.** Yeah but they definitely didn't consider those cases to be an issue when they decided to label gender on passports. And for more than 99% of people it isn't an issue either. I agree that it may cause problems for some people, but I don't know if there is an easy solution to it. Removing gender from passports might just be moving the problem, since most western first names are gendered and thus might carry the same information anyway.


Express_Opposite

It is a problem for non trans people too. Not everyone looks stereotypically like their sex.


Delicious-Gap1744

Low key why do we even need a legal gender edit:(or sex) lol Like how is it practical what so ever. I see no purpose in having it.


Uebeltank

Even if one lived in a country where a person's gender de jure didn't matter (though it de facto would), other countries would still care about it and therefore registering the information would be useful.


MilitantTeenGoth

There are big differences between men and women, so sex is practical, but yeah, gender is not.


lem753

Sure, but it's not like you have any other medical information on your passport. It doesn't seem like overly necessary information for a border official. Necessary for a doctor absolutely, but not some TSA flunky.


Delicious-Gap1744

Differences on average, sure. But no, I don't see how that makes sex practical legally what so ever. Everyone regardless of biological sex should be treated the exact same legally, I see no point.


MilitantTeenGoth

Well, for example in medicine it's extremely important to know sex.


Delicious-Gap1744

Sure, but that's not a legal issue. I'm saying it doesn't matter in your drivers license or passport. People don't need to have a legal sex or gender or anything as I see it. Of course your medical journal will always say your biological sex. But that has nothing to do with legal gender or sex.


MilitantTeenGoth

It very much does. Treatment is covered by law. Without sex being a legal thing and written in official papers, how could you sue a doctor that administers treatment for male to a female or vice versa? There needs to be some law that decides who's male and who's female. Why would it be on IDs and other papers? Well, first of all it's always good for the medics to check your gender, and you're likely to have your driver's license on you. Another thing is that it helps with identification. When a population is divided into two halves, it's useful to say in which half does the person belongs to. Lastly, regardless of what you personally believe, there are many countries that legally treat men and women differently. And in that case it's obvious why would sex be on official papers.


Delicious-Gap1744

It would be written in your medical journal.


MilitantTeenGoth

Yeah and? You have your medical journal on yourself all the time? Your name is written on your ID, so why write it on your driver's license? Also, you're forgetting medicine is not the only reason to keep sex a official thing. It's just one of the examples.


Delicious-Gap1744

And your medical journal is easily accessible if they have your information from your ID They need to check your medical journal regardless for allergies, blood type, etc.


MilitantTeenGoth

It is when there's your sex on it.


dovetc

Yes. For legal purposes biological sex is sufficient and almost universally clear cut. Considering that gender now apparently means something quite different than it did 40 years ago (when it was synonymous with sex) and it will probably continue to mean different things to different people as time goes on, it's probably best to scrap it when it comes to legal distinctions. You can think of yourself as any number of permutations if you like, but for the purposes of your driver's license M or F is sufficient.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Delicious-Gap1744

No, why? That's not what I'm saying at all. I find a legal biological sex completely irrelevant as well. I don't see any practical reason for having that either. I mean sure, your medical journal should say your biological sex. But legally I don't see any benefit of having it at all.


Ill_Virus4547

Actually, in Romania you dont need surgery to change your gender. We are in EU and it implies the right of changing your gender without surgery. There are a few cases won against Romania for imposing surgery and now you dont need one.


flexibleservicemain

Funnily enough, it's easier to change your legal gender in Portugal than your legal name.


Mental-Meat-2214

Surprised Iran actually allows you to change your gender and take the surgery


ArmeNishanian

Is Iran seriously that progressive with its current regime?


EmperorThan

Iran is kinda crazy too because they ban homosexuality with the death penalty but allow homosexuals to transition into women to avoid death.


kostispetroupoli

Either that map is titling, or it has really messed up Russia's border with Kazakhstan


SussyAmogustypebeat

Really? Russia allows it without surgery? Strange, I thought Homophobia and Transphobia went hand in hand...


ThatOneKrazyKaptain

See Iran. Not always a correct assumption


Bernard_Sh4rkey-

Apparently South East Asia is OK with transgenderism and cross dressing but not with homosexuality


rupi1312

and South Asia as well, India is very culturally against homosexuality, about transgenderism is very accepted.


Advanced-Doughnut-56

Propaganda goes hand in hand with tunnel reality.


NotLookingLikeFrank

Shoutout to Malta for being the only progressive mini-state


Ghost_Online_64

Why do people consider it a bad thing to require surgery when wanting to change gender? I dont understand whats wrong with this. Edit:I rephrased my question, older version seemed a bit "hostile ". To clarify, Im just a curious random trying to understand things that are widely discussed and view things from other points of view. I may have some different views and honestly it doesn't concern me.


Delicious-Gap1744

Because being trans doesn't necessarily mean you want the other sexes genitals. So you are then still forcing some people to legally stay as a gender they don't identify with, or getting a surgery they don't want. Edit: I changed my answer because you changed your comment.


Ghost_Online_64

I cant say I totally get how can someone want to be the opposite sex and still want to maintain their own sex's genitals without something wrong being with them. Not arguing wanting to switch, but specifically wanting to switch but not change "them" too. Regardless. At the end of the day you cant agree with everyone on everything or expect to understand/be understood. For example you say Gender (btw I thought sex and Gender are synonym) is choice and sex(sexuality) is biological, I think its the other way around (for sexuality I dont mean exactly choice , I meam "feeling" i guess, I just count it as the same). Not here to argue, just to see things from different points of view. We can agree to disagree and still keep some mutual understanding and Im fine with it. I see your point and I say "Fair enough"


macbanan

Keep in mind that the surgeries are at a rather rudimentary stage which doesn't produce the greatest results while their natural genitals work as well as anyone's. For female to male sex reassignment surgery they basically have to choose between getting a micropenis or using large skin grafts to construct a normal sized penis with even more scarring, low sensitivity with an inability to achieve a normal erection without penile implants. So you can understand why even those who want to change their sexual organs might want until better surgical techniques are available.


Ghost_Online_64

Yeah thats actually pretty solid. I only had in my mind male-to-female which seemed a bit more .. linear as a process (still a butchers work) . Yeah I guess the faster we advance that sector to efficient results, the sooner people will find "peace"


Delicious-Gap1744

I think you misunderstand a bit, sexuality does not mean sex. **Sex** is biological. You can be male or female. **Sexuality** is who you are attracted to. There are several forms of sexuality, you can be interested in only males, females, everyone, feel no sexual attraction at all etc.. **Gender** is what you feel you are, it's mostly just made up and societal, and is based on cultural norms. Most people feel like their biological sex, but a certain minority does not, this makes them **trans**.


Ghost_Online_64

Ok I see now. Yeah ok I may view this a bit differently, not that it matters here and now. In my mind I had Gender as synonym to sex, and Sexuality whatever people are attracted to.


infamous-spaceman

Because not all trans people want to get surgery, and not all trans people can afford to get surgery even if they want it.


Ghost_Online_64

Thats a fair argument. Makes sense, that way people can do so when they can.


BrownBoot24

Then why even be trans if you don't want to change?


easwaran

You want to change many things, but not the things that require taking a knife to your body. If someone wants to change how their vision works, wearing glasses is just as legitimate a strategy as having laser surgery. Similarly, if someone wants to change how they socially pass in society, changing their clothes and presentation is just as legitimate a strategy as having surgery.


infamous-spaceman

Surgery isn't the only way to change. Hormones, clothing, voice, name, etc. There are lots of ways to transition and not all of them involve surgery.


alternatively-j

Because you aren't defined as a person by your genitals.


lem753

Well basically it's because the majority of trans people don't get surgery for a number of reasons (cost, it probably fucking hurts, it's surgery so it's dangerous, they don't see it as necessary etc). Most just want to live as men or women and be left alone, and want the government not start inspecting their genitals. The passport thing is a little important because it can cause problems if you look like a man but you passport says female, especially in bullshit countries. I personally don't think passports need gender and that would solve everything.


Ghost_Online_64

I see your point...And technically thats correct, the photo and all information is just for recognition and confirmation of identity. Descriptions basically. Having it written whether you are male or female seems a bit pointless up to some extent...as long as there is recent picture (post change), thats a must imo.


lem753

Of course, I think most trans people would agree that they would want current photos in their passport for identification purposes. That's something that benefits everyone. No one is trying to deceive anyone, just to not be bothered unnecessarily.


Ghost_Online_64

Makes sense


le-epic-cleetus

Russia and Belarus surprise me


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[удалено]


easwaran

I don't think it's particularly helpful to use the word "transphobic", because using a specific word makes it sound like there's a binary division between "good" and "bad". What I would say is that asking people to have surgery before you treat them the way they want to be treated isn't very nice. It's one thing if you're asking for a fighter pilot who needs to have good vision even if they're going through high-speed high-gravity maneuvers, so that they should get eye surgery rather than wearing glasses. But for people who want to legally drive, it's fine if they choose to wear glasses, as long as they can do the things that are generally expected of someone with good eyesight. Similarly, if someone wants to get pregnant, it's important to ask them to have a uterus of their own. But if they just want to be recognized as a woman and present socially as a woman, and not have their identification contradict this presentation, it doesn't seem helpful to ask them to get surgery. They're already doing a lot more work on their gender every day than most of us are - no need to ask them to do any more.


JessicaGriffin

What’s going on, Monaco? I thought for sure they’d be dark blue.


KEEP_IT_REAL-

Hungary number #1 ☝️


Drwgeb

(in Europe)Number one in covid deaths, in falling democracy and freedom indexes, in devaluation of currency after Turkey, number one in gas and oil dependency to Russia, number one in Russia support in the whole of EU, third to last in income in EU. But making up populist bullshit is way easier than actually increasing the level of life of the population. Regards, a hungarian.


Past_Aide_6121

Ellenzéki spotted


Drwgeb

Üdv redditen


mester006

Helló szia helló helló, van bojler?


Past_Aide_6121

Nincs, itt cigánybűnözés van


type556R

Shush, what are you doing. Their zero freedom of press system is telling them Hungary is powerful and rich, Orban has the biggest cock in town and that EU is imposing them the gay laws and ruining everything. Leave it like that


infamous-spaceman

Ok sure Hungary might be failing at a lot of things, but at least they make it harder for innocent trans people to exist and be happy, so that certainly balances things out, right?


VeryWellMade

>number one in gas and oil dependency to Russia source on this? You are just another typical opposition supporter who thinks knows a lot and says dumb things (my source says otherwise [Source](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/how-much-oil-does-european-union-import-russia-2022-04-06/)) Before you would say "oH gO sUcK oRbÁn's dIcK", no I don't support Orbán, I support MZP but saying these dumb things (like oRbÁn iS a fAsCiSt, nO dEmOcRaCy iN hUnGaRy) wont help on the fact that Orbán is still in charge.


Drwgeb

You got me with that one. We are just one of the most dependent on russian oil. We are number one with gas though. I do have source on that but I will leave it up to you to disprove me. I think you need to calm down a bit and look into yourself. Read your message out loud and tell me that that is a cultured behavior. Normal people don't talk like that. Try to behave yourself.


Altrecene

his comment was very reasonable


KEEP_IT_REAL-

Number one in treating covid, democracy is overrated anyway, Czechs have 16% inflation we only 10%, income is low because hungarians don't need capitalistic woke consumerism! Glorious Viktor Orbán will lead Hungary to glory! 😎💪


Drwgeb

At least you are getting paid for this. Good for you


KEEP_IT_REAL-

No. Im just stuck bored waiting in kormányablak :(


INVICTVS_CAESAR_I

Vatican and San Marino 😎


KEEP_IT_REAL-

The based gang


BarteloTrabelo

Religious institutions are always known for being... checks notes... based? Like based in reality? Really? Either you don’t know what based means, or just lying to yourself. Lol.


Rukmadar

MAGYARORSZÁG JOBBAN TELJESÍT


Kvava06

w


iwanmonno

What's dark blue? Like you're a man but you decide that you're a woman, even though you had no surgeries done?


skyduster88

>even though you had no surgeries done? From what I understand, you still go through the transition (hormones, etc), it's just not a requirement to have surgery below the belt.


ArcherTheBoi

Nobody who has the slightest idea of how hard it actually is to transition would say something that stupid. You need to go to like, 3 different doctors just to *start* hormone replacement therapy and I'm not talking about getting a diagnosis of gender dysphoria which is another thing entirely. Did I even mention the mental process of understanding it before deciding to transition?


schmerezad

And I thought having an amputation or getting a transplant was hard.


ZealousidealIdea3413

I think the probable reason as to why surgeries are not required is probably to make transistioning easier for trans people who couldn't afford going to surgery.


infamous-spaceman

Also not all trans people want to get surgery.


Much-Ad-7260

Don't get me wrong, but if some of them don't want to change their appearance, why would they want to change their gender in official documents? I honestly don't see why it matter if you are confident enough in yourself to see yourself as opposite gender without changing appearance. Or did you just mean surgery but they still dressi like opposite gender? That would partialy make sense.


1cm4321

Typically, when you see surgical requirements to have your legal gender changed, it's talking about Gender Reassignment Surgery (GRS) which is surgical modification of your genitals. For some, the risk of complications is too much for them to go ahead with the surgery. For some, their genitals don't give them significant enough dysphoria to go ahead with a life-altering surgery. Most commonly, medical transition (hormones, surgery) is intended to relieve dysphoria. That's the distress trans people experience due to body-mismatch, basically. If you are no longer experiencing significant dysphoria, the thought for some trans people is "why continue?" especially if they're already happy.


infamous-spaceman

You can change your appearance without having surgery. For example hormones will significantly change how you look and sound. And yes, you might dress in a different way or change your voice, but still not decide to get surgery for any number of reasons.


LuxNocte

There are a lot of medical treatments that don't involve "surgery", but trans people are not required to do anything particular. Honestly, your genitals are not a large part of your appearance...I don't really understand why you are equating the two.


TehSero

>but if some of them don't want to change their appearance You're also falling into the binary trap. Not all people who are women (cis or trans) look "feminine". Not all people who are men (cis or trans) look "masculine". If someone looks fairly androgynous (for example, tomboy stylings), they may still wish to change pronouns, even if the way they tend to present isn't going to change much at all. And they want to avoid reminders or confusion any time they might have to show ID. (Not to mention non-binary folk.)


compulsive_commenter

Yes


iwanmonno

Got it. Thanks!


Tommy_SVK

What does it mean to legally change gender? And is it the same as changing your sex? Because if yes, then I feel like it's counterproductive, cause doctors need to know your actual sex if they operate on you for example. If no, then sure, but honestly I don't really see the point of having a legal gender in the first place. But eh, if it makes you happy.


Ungrammaticus

Your legal gender is simply the gender in your identity papers and governmental databases. Being able to change your legal gender to the gender you present as is important, because the opposite leads to trouble every single time you have to use your ID. Imagine if, say, Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson’s drivers license said “female.” How real would it look to a highway cop?


cocaine-kangaroo

What if we just removed gender from all forms of ID? That would nullify the debate entirely


Mtfdurian

Oh well, that trouble is well-known to me. Light voice, no big feet, being 165cm native Dutch? Then the whole circus starts. "No this isn't you, is it?" "Tell me your deadname loud and clear!" "I may have to kick you out of the train!" FGS I just want to live okay? Just because the VUMc is slacking shouldn't mean hundreds of people have to undergo harrassment by NS train stewards everyday? They use beautiful words in the machine voice but all inclusivity is gone when you meet their train stewards. Don't get me started at the AMS airport Schiphol groping practices. Ugh.


Tommy_SVK

You didn't really answer my question though. I asked whether the legal gender is sex or gender (cause these terms get often confused). Sex means what your body is, male or female. Gender means what you identify as. So if The Rock identified as a female but didn't undergo any surgery and still has the body of a man, his sex is male, but his gender is female. So would his legal gender be male or female? That is my question.


Ungrammaticus

That’s a slightly simplified breakdown of what sex is, but yea, your legal gender refers to your gender, and not your body. In one of the dark-blue coloured countries The Rock would be able to change her legal gender to female, if she was a woman. For medicinal purposes, whether you’ve had a penis or vagina created doesn’t really matter much, except if they’re literally operating on your genitals. More importantly, passports are not the typical way for doctors to find out their patients sex. Trans people, like all people, usually talk to their doctor about pertinent medical information. And trans people, like all people, have the right to withhold it if they for want to. That might not always be smart, but there’s a reason doctors appointments aren’t held under oath.


Tommy_SVK

I still think that knowing someone's sex is way more important than knowing their gender. At least in a legal sense. Is legal sex a thing as well though? So if The Rock identified as a female and legally changed his gender, would his papers still say that his sex is male? Cause that to me seems the best solution, just have both things in the papers.


Ungrammaticus

I don’t think I understand your argument here. What is an example where it would be useful in a legal sense to know what genitals someone has?


icemelter4K

None of this makes sense. Why not just abolish gender and have everyone identify as HUMAN?


Tommy_SVK

Yeah that's pretty much my point, gender is kind of a pointless thing. Let's just treat everyone as humans and we're fine, no need to label every difference.


squigs

Why is it even important to know what their gender identity is at all, let alone as a legal thing? Why is it important for this to be public information? Why do we split our entire population into two types? What does it even mean to be male or female?


Tommy_SVK

I'm not arguing that having sex in papers is important, I'm arguing that having gender is NOT important. And I'm also saying that having gender but not sex could cause unecessary confusion.


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Tommy_SVK

I mean if you look like The Rock and your ID card says female, I don't think you're gonna hide it mate. And again, I'm not obsessed with anything. I'm just saying it's gonna cause uneccessary confusion if you only include gender and not sex. As I said in my original comment, if you want your gender on your papers, it's your thing, I really don't care. I was just asking whether the papers make a disction between sex and gender, to avoid confusion.


infamous-spaceman

Having both essentially outs every trans person though, which puts them in danger.


Tommy_SVK

Yeah, cause having "female" on an ID card that says Dwayne Johnson will definitely not out them as a trans person.


infamous-spaceman

You know people can get name changes, right?


lem753

Look my argument is that our ID shouldn't have to have our gender on it. Your ID doesn't have any other medical information, and I think people undervalue their privacy. Your doctor has access to your medical records and that's the only person I'd want seeing those records.


Tommy_SVK

That's a good argument, I agree with this.


FifaTheDoctor

Glad what we have now in Czechia. Not about waking up and be other gender, but psychological and medical longrun to be 99% sure to do that radical change Perfect method imho


hepgiu

None is waking up and it’s the other gender for fuck sake. This is just straight up bullshit. Gender is a huge spectrum and gender dysphoria is a huge issue that impacts the lives of so many people. Have you have looked up at the suicide rates of trans youth? The numbers are horrific. None is “changing” gender on a whim, most people out of the binary system take time in exploring and validate their gender experience. Stop spreading hate.


dovetc

There are a good number of people who do indeed wake up and decide "today I feel like X or Y". They claim to be gender fluid. I've met a few. Surely you've heard these terms?


easwaran

They don't ask for their identification to be changed every day (though they might want their identification to be labeled as "fluid" always).


Mtfdurian

Yeah some people find it a sudden when I announced that I am transgender as "they didn't see anything". This is my track record: \- age 4: I tried dresses from my sister before I even was conscious of this world, I seemed to love it while I was usually crying all day at that age \- age 10: I hang out with the girls at elementary school all the time \- age 12: I hated my body, hated going to the men's changing room, envied the girls and how they developed, envied even their puberty and even had dreams of waking up as a girl but thought that my thoughts were perverted and never dared to out them \- age 24: first acknowledging I might be better off as a girl and that transitioning is possible. \- age 25: coming out If I had the knowledge at that age of 12, if I was given proper education about gender identity at that age, that would've saved me so much time and so much suffering. And that would still have meant I showed signs 8 years on beforehand, now it was a whopping 20 years that I faked having a male identity.


Surpungur

What about "gender fluid"?


ehll_oh_ehll

Goes well with diet coke.


Kjuolsdeaf

What spectrum? You're either male or female gender. Explain what you mean, please.


Brilliant-Cry8872

Wish light blue would be the norm..


lem753

Wow, Poland and Russia are more based on this than Finland? That's a change of pace.


esatsgrck

Based Cyprus 🇨🇾


dankboifr

Based hungary, as usual😎


Ok_Adhesiveness_8500

Based Hungary.


schmerezad

Why would anyone change their 'legal gender' without having any surgery in countries that brag about equality between men and women? Why not change your 'legal age'. Like 'I was born in 1963, but I feel I'm 12'? Change 'legal eye colour'? Or 'I was born In Iraq, but I feel British inside, make me 'legally British'. Possible? Can a 'legally woman', biologically a man, participate in women's sport competition? Because otherwise it would be discrimination.


LuxNocte

Transgender people don't owe you surgery.


Riimpak

Society doesn't owe you a prefered gender ?


teddy_002

gender is a social construct. age or biological sex isn’t. and people don’t have a “legal eye colour”, because that isn’t used on any government documents. your second point is why naturalisation and dual citizenship exists. so yes. if they pass tests proving they don’t have a clear advantage, yes.


schmerezad

European ID cards use the term 'Sex'. Could you please mention where this 'social construct' of gender is mentioned in legal documents? The gender is not even a social construct, is one person imposing to the whole world to deny reality. Yes, some passports mention eye color. Height also. Naturalization is a process at end of which one can reasonably prove they meet some standards to be part of what is really a social construct: nationality. It is not done by a mere request.


teddy_002

gender ≠ sex. and neither is changing your legal gender! well done on proving your questions are in bad faith - you know perfectly well that there are different processes.


schmerezad

Appealing to faith sounds kind of strange in the discussed matter, don't you think? So, what are they changing after all: sex, which, you said, is assigned at birth (actually at conception) or gender? Both? Or the whole strategy is to confuse people to the point they realize they have better things to do and people can be legally recognized as extraterrestrial or whatever they want maybe they'll stop al this nonsense. Government ID documents have photos, you know. Aging, growing a beard or hair are also processes that are reflected by the means of this wonderful invention which photography is.


tesseract4

Kind of amazed to see Russia and Belarus as blue here.


Redvolition

Clown World, where states canonized a psychiatric condition to bow for a minority of reality denying activists.


lem753

Look man, you're the one going against the consensus of the medical community. We're not the ones denying reality.


NathanRZehringer

How in the fuck can you change your gender? That is determined biologically