Practicing for Fontaine court event I see

Fontaine? OP just spent 5 hours hanging out with Yanfei They are now well-trained in the arts of lawyer-speak and can recite every law, terms, conditions, loopholes, and contracts found anywhere across all of Teyvat (and Mondstadt; so it turns out there's only 1 law, and that's "Klee is not allowed to go anywhere within 100 miles of Sumeru's borders")

And more importantly,they can complete all 10 Ace Attorney Games while blindfolded

Doing it very badly. Because he convinced himself that his opinion is 100% correct and that no way the opposite side have any merit.

Yeah their "defenses" are some of the most laughable statements I have ever heard that are neither based in any sort of real precedence (lower queue times and changing decks lmao... as if these problems have never been considered for any other game in the world like LoL where you change heroes, Dota 2 where you change heroes, Overwatch where you change heroes, Hearthstone where you change whole deck archetypes, Clash Royale, etc.) or general logic.

You mean League of Legends, Overwatch, and Hearthstone, games with relatively toxic competitive communities? I don't want to straw-man here, but have you ever witnessed Comp LoL and Overwatch on its worst level? I think OP was trying to say that making Invocation TCG Competitive would cause a big part of the playerbase to heavily rely on meta card decks to incentivise easy wins, leading to more people picking up meta card decks to counter the meta card deck users, leading to outright hostility, further toxicity and gatekeeping in the community, and a lack of showmanship in the game.

Had me a good chuckle at the self-select bit.

Have you ever played a ranked game in lol while being high elo (D1 +)? The queue time is ridiculously long. Op statements make sense, it's impolite to laugh at someone's arguments when they are trying to explain their point of view.

Why compare GITCG to lol, theyre massivly different with extremely different game time. Compare it to Clash Royal which doesnt have such issues and the toxicity is a minimum assuming you dont personally dig deep

Hydro Archon: He's hired.

I would be amazed if they didn’t have an invisible ELO rating system implemented already. the signs are all there. Easy first matches, getting more difficult later, going to longer wait times after winning enough. The only thing I would change is to make two, One ELO for ‘friendly fracas’ where you can experiment with non meta decks without affecting your tryhard ELO rating in ‘Serious Showdown’

I think what's happening in your case is that many casuals played initially got destroyed by meta decks and don't queue anymore leaving the ones with meta decks/more experienced players I noticed the same tbh

Imagine just starting this new and fresh experience only to be put against people that already tryhard with meta.

Reminds me when I first started in Master Duel pickup a starter deck go into a match then I get comboed for a total of 15 mins with several omni negates and gets OTK'd on the Opp's next turn.

Yeah I don’t think it’s hidden that there is some sort of SBMM. If you hit the question mark in the co-op queue pop up it’s specifically says “similar skilled”. How they determine your elo is prob as simple as your W/L

What's stopping the tryhard players choosing the casual option but going in with their meta deck?

Nothing. It's kinda like asking league players to not make smurfs. But at least their MMR system will try to stop matching them against geniunely new players after a few games.

I mean.. Kinda? There are people smurfing in every rank, ruining the game for everyone. It's not even funny how much a single challenger smurf can stomp every game, I had a friend who made it past platinum close to 100% winrate. Challenger ranked on his main account, every game I ever saw him play he had more than 15 kills. All of this to say that there is really no cure for people smurfing. If anything, keeping the game casual for everyone. If there's any sort of matchmaking, good players will still play on second accounts to stomp newbies.. Only real solution (imho) be if they released the game outside of GI, kinda like TFT and LoR are to League of Legends.

Considering that one of OP's suggestions was to have a win counter, choosing casual as a meta is going to be a very good win farm strategy.

“Casual” would be filled with tryhards, and actual casuals would just keep playing vs NPCs in Cat’s Tail.

Nothing. OP is **not** the first person to bring up these counterarguments - matchmaking isn't exactly a new thing - and several already have good responses. A ranked system, even an invisible one, slowly pulls players to their "right" position. With a ranking system the only way for a high ranking player to go back a crush new players is either to tank their rank (which only works until they start winning again) or account smurfing (which doesn't really work in Genshin because it's tied to your main account and it's a sizable commitment to get a smurf account all the way back to being able to do PVP in Invocation). Letting you choose your difficulty throws that away and makes it incredibly simple to temporarily smurf.

Yup, I agree with OP but that argument was pretty weak.

Hidden MMR, which seems to already be in game I'm pretty tryhard and I match almost exclusively against Yoimiya/Ayaka and Electro reaction teams (Quicken, EC, Superconduct) teams in coop. Even the 'non-meta' players I've encountered are damn strong. I'm a bit ashamed to admit my loss to a Kaeya/Aquila Favonia/Lucky Dog's Silver Circlet/Cold Blooded Strike/NRE-Food team. Simply couldn't do 10+ single target damage in a round to Kaeya who would heal to full every round.

OP is arguing against hidden MMR tho.

Sounds like a thinly veiled "Skill Based Match Making is ruining games" rant with some fluff to make it sound less stupid.

Nothing their argument is dumb. People on this subreddit have an allergic reaction to anything even remotely competitive.

I think the correct term they are looking is MMR some players don't want to battle those who aren't in the same lvl of their brains and they dont even wanna bully the ones on the mid tier same goes to the bullied what do you think he feels after getting beaten up badly over and over again? He probably wont enjoy or wont touch the coop ever again.

I played matchmade game 1 time, won so hard, decided that I don’t want to play multiplayer anymore lol I am not really interested in bullying kids(or just worse card game players) or playing on uneven field in general. Not going to touch coop with random people if they don’t add any type of mmr

There seems to be an Implementation of MMR in the background already. There's a few people in the TCG discord with super high win streaks getting longer and longer match times the more they play, and they are getting more competent players.

100%, I have beaten everyone in matchmaking mode and every time I thought, “damn that was probably some 10 year old kid.” Just makes me feel bad for beating up a child lol.

I'm pretty sure Hoyo knows that the slightest sniff of competitive play will drive lots of their players away They already put their eggs into this basket, and it's worked well thus far

This argument makes no sense unless you expect them to outright remove the PvP nature of the card game. Little Tommy isn't going to have fun getting blasted on turn 3 over and over again by Ayamiya or Fischl + Collei while he's got a deck full of random weapons and artifacts, and once he quits the PvP aspect for good after getting stomped 5 times in a row little Johnny will never match with him either. Then little Johnny will leave forever. And so on for all the super casuals. In a world without matchmaking, all that's going to happen over a month is that any casual who gave it several tries will probably never touch the PvP again. Fortunately, it is all but confirmed that there actually IS a hidden MMR. Hoyoverse thinks through these things a LOT better than random redditors who think tossing word salad makes their arguments cogent.

There already seems to be hidden MMR in coop matchmaking. After my first day of coop, the number of true nooblet players I've encountered in coop is next to 0.

people thinking that mmr is made just for tryhards is the most dumb thing ever. its literally to put you with people with similar skill level. and on 1v1 games is the most accurate way to do it. this same people will cry and abandon a game if they got obliterared on first 5 matches, which is what mmr queues try to fix.

I agree if good rewards are tied to rank. But is there a downside to no rewards at all and your rank is just for the prestige? That’s all I really want tbh and would encourage me to play TCG even more

Any rank system i've ever seen usually breeds at least a minimum level of toxicity.

it's the fomo of rewards and the driving conflict between casual players losing out "bonus" content to people who "don't touch grass" that grinds pvp

I'm not just talking Gacha, though. I've seen people take ranks waaay too seriously, as though they might become professionals.

As if rank is needed for players to be toxic. I had a guy down to 1HP and frozen. He had a full set of energy dice and 8 cards. He proceeded to wait until he had one second left in his time out bar before using one of his cards to reset the timer until he was all out of energy, thus stretching out the game for what felt like 5 more minutes. Rankings and levels don't lead to toxicity. Some people are just like that under any and all circumstances.

Just having rankings would already bring out the worst of people. In Azur Lane, a game with no competitiveness at all, there are people that still resort to cheating so they could be in the top ranks.

Rank rating is the reward itself. Other multiplayer games dont even give out anything or gives out almost nothing except mmr itself and if the game is good enough it keeps players coming back for more Having primo rewards will 100% drive the casual away

A rank for prestige is still a reward. You said it yourself: prestige.

I feel like we're going waaay too much in the other direction. Like, look at how dumbed down the new Misty Dungeon is. Literally a shell of its former self. People are complaining so much about having to engage with the slightest form of challenge that we might as well switch to being a full-on visual novel. And its insane that I'm saying this since I don't play games. I haven't since my teens because I got bullied out of online games for the most part to the point where pre-Genshin I only played the sims. I don't want Genshin to become like those games but also I think we can have a modicum of challenge. And ranking will help people get grouped in groups that actually challenge them instead of either getting absurdly easy or hard opponents.

All misty dungeons were a joke, they were just longer before lol

And that wasn’t necessarily a bad thing. Because you could actually pull off a full rotation and get a feel for the character. Now, since you’re obviously encouraged to fulfill conditions, it’s very easy to just blink through everything with even the worst options out of the trial characters. Some events are great. This one could be much much better.

It's not that I don't AGREE, it's that I think that outside of the very obvious mega challenge events they've just never been hard. I do think there's room for more of a difficulty ceiling of course.

Most likely one of the most common complaints people gave in the event survey for misty dungeons is that the room layout was complicated and it didn't have a minimap, so Mihoyo listened to them and gave us this iteration.

This point really

Yea we're just reddit monkeys, these people have made several games already. I trust hoyo more than ppl wanting pvp ranks for their own enjoyment.

2 years of Genshin and people haven't learned yet. It's pretty funny.

"toxic drive to be better than everyone else that propels such a desire." ​ So being competitive is now a toxic trait? Wow.

Fr. Op only sees the negative minority trolling everyone and avoids all the positive aspects. He made this post really long with long words to sound smart, but tbh his idea is lame. Op basically said that he doesn't want the system so it should not exist.

I'm sure this has been raised before and I'm not sure whether OP's addressed it, but how does a PvP ranking affect players like OP and myself, who're content to stay in PvE and only PvP against friends? Nothing, if all the prizes remain PvE-exclusive and PvP is truly, 100% optional, which is the case already. Let those who really want to go at the game be able to measure themselves. This doesn't even have the P2W factor of Abyss, since anyone can build any deck they want and beat anyone else. To me, it's a hallmark of insecurity disguised by a fear of toxicity when you would argue to deny some 3-4 digit number next to someone's name that means nothing to you (and that you won't see) if you don't plan to PvP anyway.

OP Imma be real with you, your idea sucks and it wont work without severe changes

I don't want a rank system either, but can we chill out on getting angry at people for wanting things we don't? If there was ranked in addition to the current unranked system, I would keep playing unranked and you would too. Boom, not a fucking problem. Why do we need to make this an "us vs them" conversation?

Literally here we go with us going "FUCK YOU CHANGE GAMES FOR WANTING A SIMPLE CHANGE OR ADDITION TO CONTENT THAT SOMEONE COULD JUST IGNORE YOUR RUINING MY CASUAL GAMEEEEEEER"

Ah yes. The “I will not enjoy it so the others shouldn’t too” with a sprinkle of “toxic” shield and “look at hyv revenue” buff on top. Everyday genshin community.

Never thought I'd see the day when wanting to be the best at something was considered toxic. Genshin players need to lock up Ash Ketchum for toxicity, absolute menace to society.

Considering he recently won that champjon, he's now the most toxic person in his universe

LMFAOOO

Also funny how most defense against the argument of "competitive = bad" is because it forces players to PLAY THE DAMN GAME, like damn, if you wanna just try out future characters just use the private server to get everything.

Can't upvote this enough. I don't know why this has become a trend here (PVP, more endgame content, visible ranking for TCG) but I swear I have only seen it in the Genshin community.

Good on you for accepting counter-arguments OP. At time of writing I see you have addressed metadecking and net decking, as well as toxicity. Right off the bat I want to say that you can meta deck without being toxic, but on top of that I want to offer some insight on the sensitive subject of metadecking. Metadecking happens very naturally in any card game because a lot of players want to win. When competitive people try to win as much as possible, they will choose strategies they think allow them to maximise their win rate. This is entirely a statistics quandary. One thing I want to highlight here as a corollary is that even if you think your brew is creative and good, if it has a high win rate, others will see that success and emulate your strategy. And if it is a high tier strategy, its usage will rise until it is now a meta deck. Metadecking doesn't just happen because "oh this deck is good so everyone uses it", by understanding why metadecking happens, we realise that even fresh brews become meta eventually if they are a sound strategy. **This does not mean creativity is hampered by metadecking.** I want to stress and advocate this point. Creativity is only truly hampered when there is a small cardpool, few players and a lazy support team. Because then the dominant strategy will emerge quick and sit there eternally. Instead, by having a lot of players playing the meta, if you want to test your brew, you have an excellent testing sample to try your brew against! You'll quickly know what parts about your cool new idea work, which ideas don't and how to improve the deck. No deck works in a vacuum, and the only way to test how good your deck is, is to test it against the strongest strategies and players. The meta isn't some stagnant bogeyman that just sits there and kills creativity. It is an ever-evolving beast fuelled by players seeking to improve themselves and their decks. New cards and nerfs keep the meta on their toes, while players seeking to beat the top decks will always be on the lookout for new ways to beat them. Don't fear the meta, and don't fear a ranking system that gives us information on which decks are doing well. EDIT: I want to say one more thing about meta decking. If you want to brew, don't be afraid to meta deck. I'm not even joking! "Know thyself and know thy enemy and you will win every battle." In a card game, what better way to know the ins and outs of your opponent's deck than to *play* your opponent's deck? You will know every weakness and strength of the deck and be better equipped to make a fresh brew that counters that strategy. If you wanna brew, don't be afraid to metadeck!

>Creativity is only truly hampered when there is a small cardpool, few players and a lazy support team. Well said. Very healthy positive energy throughout this comment, that I wish was more widespread :)

Absolutely. The main reason why metadecks are so small and overused is because: - The card pool is particularly small. It’s good, for now, but we’re not going to see more reflexive use of cards until it diversifies. - We’re not even able to buy all of the available support cards yet, which leads back to the first issue since players will focus on sets that are at the very top. I do have an issue more generally with this game, though. The inability to change the three main deck cards does hamper creativity massively. As more cards are added and we get a stronger idea of which teams perform well in each scenario, there will simply be a point where, player ability and chance being relatively equal, one of those players is going to start at a disadvantage. On your point about fearing the meta, fortunately you can use the starter deck for all of the current challenges. But what I’m seeing is people just not wanting to play card games in general, so the idea of switching to other characters and pouring over card descriptions is a turn off for them. Which is sad, because it’s fairly well designed and the joy of card games comes from constant evolution. Honestly, I think guilds would be appropriate for players who want to be more competitive. Guilds can cater to all sorts of player types, be it casual, meta-chasers or something in between. There, you’re giving the players power to make their own tournaments, etc., without scaring anyone off. The presence of other people or guild leaders also limits potential bullying. That’s very much a pipe dream, though. And I’m sure plenty of people here will just tell me to ‘play something else’.

As a person who plays a lot of VGC (competitive Pokemon), your points are absolutely correct

Metadecking happens in card games that are focused on winning. Not every game has to be that but that’s more a general game design point, not something necessarily applicable to Genshin… Also good for OP taking new counterarguments but I don’t think you will get a complete or sophisticated set of objections in a reddit comment section. OP’s argumentation strategy is a defense strategy that has no sophisticated argument or breakdown of its original point

It’s a card game that is literally a duel between two people. It’s competitive in its very conception. I don’t understand why people are so hellbent on making every part of Genshin as casual and vanilla as possible. It’s such a big world, with so many mechanics, now including a card game - just use it as a sandbox to create *both* the vanilla content for those chill players *and* the tiered challenge content for those who seek it out. There’s quite literally nothing preventing some players from simply *not* engaging with the challenge, while those who want the challenge can’t exactly create it on their own if it doesn’t exist in the game at all.

Agreed. They don’t have to have ranked be a main feature either. The game is already nestled well deep in many many hours of an rpg experience centered around action combat and story and gacha. The game can’t overdo appealing to casual with everything all the time or else it will lose its sense of heart and innovation as a live service game. It’s far from that at the moment imo but people shouldn’t overstate genshin as a casual game, especially when it can take hardcore dozens of hours to farm artifacts and just to play through the story content.

Why not just.. not play Ranked? Most games with ranking system also has a casual non-ranked mode. I don’t see how it is mutually exclusive. For example, I enjoy eating but I don’t join eating competitions.

For real, OP is acting like a ranked mode would completely replace casual mode and they're making this into an "us against them" kinda thing for no reason.

Your defense for your first objection is quite shit. Other card games have already figured this stuff out—there’s no need to redo all this from scratch. 1. Slower match times - This doesn’t affect casuals. High ranks across ALL games have slower match times but they choose to wait for it regardless. Why can’t the pvp wanters have this just because casual players such as yourself don’t like it, even though it wouldn’t affect you? 2. ideal matching algo — it doesn’t NEED to be ideal. Something loose to start with is fine. Diamond having to play VS Challenger is better than Bronze vs Diamond. Plus, other games have figured this out for years. They can learn something from one of the various games out there. 3. updated cards and changing decks - No other popular online card game in recent history has EVER had issues with their ranking system just because a player changed their decks or the game added new cards. First, no game ranks you based on your deck wtf. Second, you know how established card games deal with the changing meta due to updated cards? By resetting the ranks at the end of every “season,” however long that may be. Easy solution. Edit: I was wrong on # 3. Apparently Gwent did this thanks to commenter below for informing me, but still stand by a simple seasonal reset being good enough. Ranked PVP is a WANT, not a NEED. If players want it, it doesn’t NEED to affect you if you are someone who doesn’t want it. Unless people are being forced to play ranked matches or if it actually affects you somehow, then your opinions on why pvp shouldn’t exist are irrelevant.

It doesnt even need tiers. Show us a 1-1000 leaderboard and outside of that do not show at all. Most people are just going for TCG level rewards anyway, they havent even touched coop. >!I wonder what would be if they discovered it's literally based on YuGiOh the biggest competitive card franchise in history, lets pretend Candace's visual is simply not a Yubel w/ millenium eye!<

I liked how Pokemon Go used to do their PVP leaderboards and rewards (not sure if it's changed since I haven't played in 1-2 years). If I remember correctly, there was no leaderboard in game, but you do get to see your MMR and ranking. The bottom half of ranking anyone can reach by simply winning a certain number of games. You can see your opponents RANK but not their MMR at this level, so you know you're matched up against someone at the same rank, but in the worst case that player base is low, they will match you against someone slightly higher or lower. The top 5 or so ranks started accounting for ELO gain/loss and that's when you get to see your and your opponent's MMR rating. The top 500 players also had a leaderboard that you'd have to go out of your way to find on the official website. Rewards were pretty well done too. Each time you went to PVP, you played them in groups of 5 (not all at once of course). The number of wins you get within each group of 5 determines which rewards you got. There were always 5 rewards lined up like a battle pass with a Free path and a Premium path (you can access this with free premium rewards they sometimes give out). It was really easy to get these rewards at low ranks, but got a lot harder in the top 5 ranks. Reaching the highest rank, regardless of where you are on the leaderboard, guaranteed you a limited season reward.

Some Genshin players are honestly mind blowing to me. "I wouldn't enjoy it so I don't want it in the game" If there would be minimum rewards or rewards strictly related to TCG like cardbacks, what exactly is the issue? It would form a small community of dedicated TCG players that you wouldn't have any need to participate in. I would even argue that it would be beneficial to the game as it keeps some player occupied while waiting for actual content and give them a reason to spend time in game. This talk about toxicity is super absurd by the way. Have you seen this subreddit during it's peak? Or have you ever browsed Genshin Twitter? A competitive mode for their TCG is definitely not gonna make it noticeably worse than it already is.

You knew you could discard ops argument as soon as they ended with >Oh and it's free Like that ever fucking meant anything. Like what? It's free so we should just sit tight and say literally nothing? They do realize half the QOL shit came because **people complained**? If they had their way we would still have the garbage alternate dashes.

Genshin fans have always been like that. They'll argue. It's free so be happy with it. Bro yes it's free but have you seen how much money some people spend on it... don't call us entitled when we made Mihoyo billions of dollars.

I just want to see matches played as well as win/loss, doesn't even have to be in game for display, just a battle chronicle thing will be fine. I want to see how much time i sinked into it

Considering hoyo has record on everything, they might probably add it to their yearly account review.

This. atleast show us our coop match record, even if only show to us not to other players.

Pretty sure they are farming this data already they track so much data ingame even trivial things but yeah why not

>Invisible ranked matchmaking, while attractive, can have several issues such as 1) slower match times and 2) inaccurate ranks due to changing decks. The key problem is the need to decide on several things 1) an ideal rank metric (W/L ratio, MMR system...etc), 2) an ideal matching algorithm (minimum distance that may vary by time waited) and 3) how rank may decay / change over time as decks change or cards get updated. All of this is too complicated for a game that is never intended for competitive play. >Instead, if better matchmaking is required, it would be better for players to "self-select" themselves. For example, players could choose between identifying themselves as a "casual", "moderate" or "expert" player when matching and the system would only match people within their selected classes. This is simpler to implement, quicker to match and avoids the need for any kind of actual ranking system, hidden or otherwise. This is a really, really terrible argument. Your arguments against are flimsy and don't address the 'objection' at all. Having slightly slower match times and inaccurate ranks is somehow more of a problem than matching hardcore players against casuals? So to avoid a minor inconvenience you burden both types of players (hardcore and casual) with more extreme inconveniences, i.e. matching them up in one-sided matches where they are guaranteed to win/lose? Even your suggestion is nonsensical, what stops trolls with top-tier meta decks from farming new/casual players by self-identifying as casuals? To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if Hoyoverse already has an invisible MMR system implemented because they put a lot of thought into their decision making and there is no good argument for letting casual players match up against top-tier meta deck players, it will just ruin their enjoyment of the game. Pretty much every card game with an 'unranked' mode still has MMR for that mode, it's just invisible to players. You never want new players playing against seasoned veterans.

It is confirmed that it has an invisible MMR

Glad some people are calling out OP's bullshit.

I didn’t hard disagree initially but seeing OP add in their “objections” showed that they are actually a baby. It’s so embarrassing

Agreed, like holy shit they want to seem so professional and smart about their argument when it really boils down to “I don’t want it so nobody gets it”, with the objections being strawmen and the defenses being incorrect

Yup, but there are a lot of children on this sub who saw OP's italicized and bolded text and thought it must mean they are smart and auto agreed with it. When you look at the defenses with more than 2 braincells you see they are quite shit

Same, was really worried the comments were going to baby OP. Happily surprised.

Nah this same talking point doesn't work that well here with the TCG given that it's by nature a competitive game as it's PvP as opposed to spiral abyss and the rest of Genshin which is all PvE. Besides, wasn't the TCG being promoted here pre-release as an "endgame" activity for the tryhards to grind? We going to gatekeep this one too? Casuals only? Lol. Also, some sort of MMR/ranking system would actually benefit casuals so they don't get screwed in matchmaking.

Why are you afraid of have more options available? Those who would like a ranked mode could play that, and those who don't could use what's currently available. I don't understand people's fear of having more.

Because when it comes down to it, the entire post is "i won't enjoy this feature so nobody else should get to either", sprinkled with some really bad counterpoints.

Same energy as all the people on this sub that come to flame you when you bring up endgame content. They apparently don't have the time to do more content so they don't want others getting some additional rewards. This " I can't have it so others shouldn't either " mentality is so disgusting to me. You could just.. not do it? Why do you have to be so selfish? There's just so much gatekeeping on this community it's unreal.

The main difference is that a ranked mode for the TCG likely wouldnt have rewards behind it, so there wouldnt be any issue. I guarantee when people ask for more endgame that a good portion of those people also want rewards for completion, and that's the main issue with more endgame. We don't need more FOMO than we already have.

They don't want options, they hate the notion of people enjoying something differently it's their way or the highway even if it doesn't affect them. These kinds of players always pop up whenever a different play style / way to play a game might be available, and they're always in the side casual players rather than competitive/hardcore players. In a recent example, in WoW there were talks about whether or not there should be daily or every 3/4 days, Blizzard turned against everyday quests because players who didn't login everyday complained. They wanted to force other players to only do quests every 3/4 days because that is how they play, had there been daily quests the vocal casuals still could have logged in every 3/4 and daily players everyday.

The very notion of competition surrounding Genshin elicits insane pushback, no matter how little it would impact the parties involved. It's exhausting.

And yet its social spaces are hyper competitive! Try going against the mold on this subreddit and see the downvotes pour in. Genshin is the perfect storm of "casual" socialites experiencing their first gacha game, and frankly, I'm sick and tired of their bullshit. The negativity of the community combined with the Dev's complacency has drained my love for the game, particularly on social media.

"I wouldn't have fun with the ranked mode, so I don't want others to have it." It's childish, honestly.

and toxic, OP spent so much time writing out this post trying to portray himself as some reasonable middleman when he's really just being toxic and trying to stifle the potential of a new gamemode. And he's making up issues of toxicity and competitiveness when adding a ranked system would have the opposite effect and actually let casual players guarantee casual matches easier lmao. Just don't give extra rewards for higher ranks aside from cosmetics maybe and everyone is happy. A MMR system is 100% an improvement to the system for all players casual or tryhard, and it is honestly crazy to me that OP somehow managed to weave an argument this convoluted to try to convince us otherwise.

There are no arguments. The whole post is very subjective and overall a mess and the OP is young most likely. Or a person with underdeveloped understanding of logic.

It's not that I don't like a competitive games, but every player in any competitive games I have played is always toxic and I don't want genshin to become one of them.

it's very simple to prevent toxicity in the tcg random matches though? You have zero way of communicating with your opponent and they could just hide the enemy player name (or give an option to hide their own name for people who are afraid of toxicity)

I always wonder what ‘toxicity’ actually means to most people. Because that and ‘community’ seems to change from one person to the next. Like yeah, some people are horrible to be around online. But discord and friends exist. And all my experiences playing with randoms on TCG have been super fun and friendly. 🤷🏽‍♂️

In this case it's not really about toxic social interactions. You can't even easily community in game. It mostly means the gameplay interactions and meta development would suck. The gamemode's been out for like a week so there's not really a "meta" yet, but even a 0-rewards leaderboard / ladder can encourage people to look up the "best" deck, and just play that to climb. So the meta would be "toxic" when most people are just playing the same 3 or 4 decks.

So what's the difference between that and now in the highest hidden mmr where everyone is just the variant between 2 or 3 deck.

The difference is psychological, by not having a number, you feel less defeated by a loss because you don't know what that loss represents. Risking losing by playing a weird deck is much less painful when the cost is abstract and winning using a meta deck means nothing in the grand scheme so you have no real incentive to just stick to them if you get board. Once you give people a rank number, you go one of two ways. You're either CSGO where ranking feels arbitrary and like absolute shit when you win 9 games in a row and go nowhere or OW where you can see exactly how many wins you need and no matter how close you get, if you lose a bit much you whiteness as all your work goes to waste which also feels like shit. The point is, ranks just exist to validate people's skill and add nothing of value and a lot of negatives to casual players who don't need validation. I stead of focusing on ranks, by not having then you can focus on what actually matters, the card game itself.

Pretty much because you can’t even interact with them that makes it Friendly, which is a good thing because if After Games you’re allowed to interact with whom you’ve fought, then it will be a problem. We don’t need TCG to be Ranked or allowing to interact with Randoms.

No one is suggesting to implement chat or emotes or the like into the card game. I don't know how the inclusion of a competitive mode would somehow make the game toxic in your mind.

I'll go in the middle - it needs one for matchmaking purposes, but it doesn't need to be visible to the players.

I think this is how it currently is actually. Will need a larger sample size but some streamers with high win rates and high number of games seem to be matching up against better players consistently. Could be coincidence but seems likely to be in effect.

Yes. I’d feel bad crushing a newbie and I’m sure they wouldn’t have fun being crushed either.

Ranks are a good way too keep casuals fighting casuals and tryhards fighting tryhards

OPs profile talks about how he wants to “challenge himself by 36 starring abyss”, but challenging yourself to get good at a card game you enjoy is toxic. Ok 👍

Yep, knowing how Genshin players are too competitive and toxic at the same time without anything to be competitive about makes it even more toxic if something competitive added. I just said competitive 3 times in a sentence.

lmao the akasha system vibes of "competitive artifacts" (even though I as a data nut definitely love having it)

First of all, I don't think wanting to be the best at something is inherently toxic as you claim. If you want to enjoy the game as a casual player who likes the art, enjoys the music then that's great. It doesn't give you the right to police how other people play. If someone wants to use meta teams to clear the abyss as fast as they possibly could, good for them. If someone wants to spend all of their ingame time exploring, good for them. You say meta teams made the abyss stale, I would say the opposite. Hunting for the meta gave rise to proper theorycrafting which is super fun in itself. For the TCG thing, just introduce a casual and competitive mode. Try all the creative fun things in casual and go and meta hunt in competitive. Have a leaderboard or a rank system in competitive kinda like VALORANT. Casual should be just what we have now. No win-lose records, no win counter nothing. Play casual if you want to have fun and play with other people. No additional rewards at all for either system. Also, people keep bringing up the game is available for free as if Hoyoverse is running Genshin at a loss and aren't generating millions in profit. Don't get me wrong, I am incredibly thankful to Hoyoverse for creating Genshin and making it free but I don't like people using that as an excuse against people asking for what they think are improvements to the game

Moot discussion because there is already a hidden MMR anyway. The lack of a "PVP rank system" is purely in title only. But what a cringey post this is. It's people like you who are arguably just as bad as the people who keep clamoring for endgame content and repeating "anxiety" jokes: the opposite end of that spectrum where people just want to maintain the status quo; the people who want to keep everything sterilized and sheltered. The people who revolt at the slightest idea of competition or conflict. People who use toxic positivity to pretend like they care for everyone when deep down it's actually just a jealousy-driven mess of "I don't want other people to have fun the way I don't want to have fun".

I wouldnt mind a ranked ladder that offered nothing but colors for the front borders of the cards or designs for the back or table.

That's actually pretty much how alot of multiplayer competitive games work already they barely give out rewards and some of them don't even give out rewards. Just mmr. I see no problem at it

There is already a MMR and matchmaking system, it's just hidden from the player. Proof: https://imgur.com/a/C6tEFD0

This guy is no fun at all

Ironically, a ranking system is going to be needed to engage new or casual players at all. As it is, casual players are going to frequently run into hardcores who kill their entire deck in a couple turns. This will get even worse as the TCG meta solidifies. A ranking system will be needed to avoid driving most new players away.

Pretty sure that everyone in TCG discrod agrees that a hidden mmr exists. If you win more you will be matched with stronger opponents and queue times will rise, but you are not going to see the ranks directly

This shit is becoming ridiculous. I'm not that competitive person either, but holy fuck, let's call a spade for what it is. You people are taking this "no competitiveness whatsoever" to a harmful extreme. You are unironically becoming the toxic people you rave about in all of these threads.

They basically want genshin to turn into a visual novel which it's already very close to. The beautiful combat system in Genshin has gone to waste and rot since there is absolutely no place to effectively use it,same with artifact system. The content in the game is dumbing down more and more.

You are getting downvoted but you're right. Misty dungeons has been terrible. With the game approaching it's 3rd year do you all want the new area to be as easy as the first? Cause so far I can't appreciate the new enemy designs if they just fall within seconds of my basic bennet xiangling xq team. Remember how they complained about how hard rhe husks are, so mhyo nerfed them to oblivion now they don't even show up apart from the chasm and they are barely as tough as a Mitachurl.

People don't understand for what rankings are meant, it's meant to separate the casuals from try hards. Like imagine being a casual and match against 5 good players in a row and get destroyed in all matchs, it feels rlly bad, also imagine that a good player wants a challenge but match only against low skilled players making it a boring and unchallenge experience. I see 0 problems with ranks specially for a TCG, it makes the matchmaking more healthy for casual and give more challenge for try harders, and if u are both u just sit on the middle of the pack.

I'm already feeling this. Half my matches I'm up against somebody that seems to have queued up by accident or something. They switch characters a lot, pass turns with 5 dice, burn cards for nothing. The other half are trying hard to win by turn 3. I really wish there was a ranked mode without rewards just to filter out people with no game experience.

Just made two modes in pvp. Friendly mode and serious mode just like how they done in pvp. Causuals can go in friendly and find people similar to them while try hards can choose serious mode when they want to get competitive.

This guy gets it and we'll said. I am a mmo veteran but never really played any card game so I would prefer to play people in my skill range and I'm sure it is the same for more skilled players. When I played PvP in mmo's it was always better to be matched with other players will my skill level so I did not steamroll new players there is no fun in that for both players.

This. It actually favors those who just wants to have fun.

All wrong anyway. Your arguments are very up in the air and have no true logical string to link them together. 1) You simply said “this is too complicated for a game without any PVP” well Genshin Impact is a game without PVP but Genius Invokation is another game on its own and has literally no ties to the main game whatsoever. It could very well be released as a separate game and it’d be fine. 2) ”It would become too meta and would be unfun” well as you said it yourself, Abyss is also have devolved into three meta teams and its variations without **any PVP whatsoever** so the logical conclusion is that if the content is difficult enough there will be a meta regardless of competition. 3) You and yourself only has somehow decided that the desire to be good at something, even BEST at something is somehow toxic. Well humans are naturally competitive much like many other mammals and there is nothing inherently toxic about competition. Since you can’t speak to your opponent in TCG anyway you really don’t have to worry about verbal toxicity at all :) Also worth noting that without any sort of MMR the average Joe will get crushed by meta decks with random ass weapons in their own decks and ultimately give up playing online tcg at all. Sorry. This post is an all around mess imo. You’re just trying to push your extremely subjective opinions as legitimate logical defenses. I see none here.

Gotta says, these “defenses” are about as flimsy as tissue paper. I have no interest in competitive ranked, but looking at how crap the argument against it is makes me think it ought to exist. The arguments for in your own post are just so much stronger.

Most of the objections this guy raised is just word salad. Nothing of substance. Go play other competitive game argument is dumb. They want the GI tcg to have a competitive mode, not other games lmao. If you don't want a competitive environment, don't play it. Make two queues, one casual, one hardcore. Queue time argument is dumb.

you don't like try hards having fun? are casuals the only deserving of this kind of treatment? Even recent events has been dumbed down. If the playerbase deserve this kind of difficulty welp they brought it upon themselves.

Theyd just argue majority of customers are causal. Bro it's a card game it doenst have primos tied to it... Do you all play chess complaining that some people devote their lives being grandmasters at it. Do you all just play Uno like a kindergartner. I hate toxicity as much as the next person but this is just ridiculous.

This is becoming a fucking meme now. The idea of anything competitive has immediate push back on reddit. "There is nothing inherent in a two-player game that must necessitate a ranked system, in fact, it is only the toxic drive to be better than everyone else that propels such a desire." i guess I am toxically driven because I want to get better at a video game?? Wanting to get a raise at my job, get the best grades... all toxically driven wow. There are no emotes or text chat in the the actual card game so where would the toxicity happen? If you say it would happen outside of the game then ban the entire game since just the PVE already brings in a lot of toxicity. I hope that OP is just baiting and doesnt actually believe this. These types of players are just as bad as the so called "toxic" players that OP is afraid of.

These all sound like YOU issue >It's complicated! No it's not, game designers are aware of MMR systems and hoyo has a huge pool of resources to establish a system. It's not for the player base to build the ladder system. >It'll lead to meta gaming! >People will compare themselves! This is inevitable, meta gaming and comparisons are already prevalent in genshin. A rank system would give a competitive avenue to express their TCG skills while staying away from casual gamers in quick/casual play. A rank system only stands to give a section of the player base a new system to play around.

I respectfully disagree with you. The statement that Genshin *shouldn't* be a competitive game in any way is a bit too much for me. I think there's room for competition; however, this is probably not convenient for Hoyoverse, as they have already focused on developing Genshin as a casual-friendly game. So I don't expect any formed of optional ranked mode, though I would certainly like to see it implemented. Here are some of my counter-objections to your defenses: **Defense:** Ranked matchmaking comes with many problems. **Counter-objection:** 1) *Longer queue times*. People who play ranked are used to them, and people who don't play ranked wouldn't have to deal with them, so I don't see the problem here. 2) *Inaccurate ranks due to changing decks*. Sure, if you start playing a new deck, your rank might inaccurately display your abilities with said deck, but rank is mostly a measure of how good a player is. If a player is not as proficient with a new deck as with the deck they were playing before, their rank will naturally decrease to reflect that. So again, I don't see a problem here. 3) *Metrics/algorithms are complicated.* Not really. Tons of games have implemented them successfully already, and Genshin has a ton of resources and talented developers to do so as well. 4) *Problems with rank changing over time.* Simple. As any other ranked game ever, just make seasons every X amount of months where your rank is reset. **Defense:** Ranked competitiveness encourages toxicity and staleness from relying too much on the meta. **Counter-objection:** Have you been living under a rock? Despite being an inherently casual game, Genshin already has one of the most meta-oriented playerbases I've ever seen, with a solid amount of toxicity. When a new character comes out, there's tons of videos, threads, guides, comments and whatnot about whether that character is good or not compared to others. I see fights and slandering and, overall, lots of toxic behavior because X character doesn't deal as much damage as, let's say, Raiden, Ayaka or Hu Tao: "Cyno is about as good as Keqing? He must suck!" "Yae is worse than Fischl. E -> E -> E -> Q -> E -> E -> E is so slow and energy-expensive!" "Bennett + Xingqiu + Xiangling is broken. Use National Team, you don't need anything else." Even in the TCG, there's already a ton of people who make content about the newest 'meta' decks (the one I've seen featured the most is Yoimiya + Ayaka + Pyro Fatui Agent). The meta staleness and toxicity is already there, and an optional ranked mode for a secondary game mode isn't going to make it much, if any, worse. **Defense:** *The TCG doesn't need to have a ranked mode to be fun; if you want to play ranked, other games are better suited.* I agree with the first part of this defense--the TCG doesn't *need* a ranked mode to be enjoyable. However, the claim that the TCG isn't suited for ranked and that competitiveness fosters toxicity is completely innacurate, in my opinion. I especially hate that you said this: >"If you want to be the very best that no one ever was, you could play other games instead." Why gatekeep people from a game if they want to have a competitive experience, when some people simply find competitiveness more enjoyable? I know many people, myself included, who would enjoy having an optional ranked mode. Emphasis on *optional.* The people who don't enjoy or don't want to play ranked wouldn't need to, and could simply enjoy the game with friends and/or in casual matchmaking. ​ **TL;DR:** The TCG doesn't *need* a ranked system and Hoyoverse probably won't implement it, as Genshin is a game catered towards casual players and focusing on this audience will yield the best business results. However, ranked modes and competitiveness are by no means a bad thing, and I, along with many other people, would really appreciate them being implemented.

I play World of Tanks and YugiOh. And the amount of salt and tears on matches will surely pulling your hairs, especially on Yugioh were meta decks are to make sure your opponent doesn't even get to play.

So genuine question, why are people so opposed to having any competitive/co-op/end game modes in the game? I primarily play for the story, but I wouldn’t mind for these options to be there. They would be fun to interact with when I want to, but then I could always go back to exploring or doing story when I feel like it. I couldn’t care less about the teapot system, but I don’t care that it was added and don’t want it removed, but some people seem to be very opposed to any sort of competitive or challenging content being added.

i don't see why you have to be so negative about it. Sure, some people will be toxic, but you currently don't even have a way to spread toxicity through the game and many more people will just enjoy the feature. Whoever doesn't like it can just stay away from it. If they want to keep the tcg alive without introducing ranked they will have to support it constantly (i.e. release expansions, cards and skins more often), otherwise it will likely die before fontaine gets released. I don't see how thinking about some MMR system that can please everyone would be a waste of resources, and i would also argue that if i can instantly match with 3 other people when doing old coop domains then matchmaking time will never take too much time for the tcg.

I'll never get the concept of "seeing someone do well will drive players away!!!". I understand that having rewards tied to being the best can be a turnoff for some as it can feel daunting to try to challenge players who are trying hard, but even when it's just a side option? Where the hell are people pulling these kinds of assumptions that being given the choice to play competitively AND casually would drive people away? ​ >Genshin has never been a competitive game and should stay that way. There are many other games that can fulfill your competitive needs. This is not one of them. And I Heavily disagree with this. Why is it not possible to fulfill both? Why can't a more competitive option be available when both are not mutually exclusive? Your excuse is that people will become toxic as if that isn't already the case. We already get complaints about how X character isn't strong enough or how X character needs a buff, and don't get me started on twiitter.

So many experienced TCG players have 20-1 W/L. It can't avoid competitions when TCG is a PvP game. Current match system doesn't work well and I am sorry for defeating players who just start to play TCG. I think heaving a rank system will help players find more suitable opponents.

No it does. You are thinking about it in the wrong way. Without match-making to separate the casual players from the try-hards, PVP is such a mixed bag. I mean imagine how “fun” it’d be for a new player to make a new deck then play pvp and go against someone that kills them in two turns with a “meta” deck. This is why ranked systems exist in the first place, so people of similar skillset play against each other. I’m not saying that every single random coop match should be ranked, I’m saying there should be an additional competitive queue option.

i was waiting for this debate to happen lol

Don’t see a problem with a rank mode, if you don’t want to play ranked just play casual which is exactly what we have now. Nobody is forcing you into ranked matches, but giving the option of playing ranked to hardcore players is never a bad thing especially when there are no primogem rewards attached. I don’t get the “toxicity” arguments… like there isn’t even a chat feature lol. At worst a sub for genshin TCG gets created and all the toxicity goes there… which again you don’t have to join.

Bruh there aren’t even emotes. The only way you can even be remotely toxic is if you rope and play out your entire hand before going for the win.

I feel like the obvious solution is to just spin-off Genius Invocation into its own launcher and then balance that for ranked and have a purely casual version so you can duel NPCs or play with friends in your teapot (like how there's Gwent in the Witcher and Gwent its own card game). Then quality of life/cool factor I'd super dig for the in-game version would be being able to host lobbies in Genshin with a kind've teapot lobby system where you can effectively set-up different LGS's and tag them so people know what to expect. Get that nice cozy feel of slinging cards with randos, similar to the vibe cat's tail has. Facilitate streamers or community faces in setting up cool events. It's the hardest option but definitely the \*coolest\* imo. That aside, I feel like the argument of "If you want X, play other games! Genshin is Free!" is...well, a bit of a poisoned mindset I hope I can convince you to ease up on. Like, I get it, you want Genshin to remain super casual and you're worried about changes to it. That's valid. But that phrasing comes across as both dismissive to others while collapsing under its own weight at the barest bit of scrutiny. Feedback and community wants (even wants that you don't personally share) are important. If they weren't valuable Hoyo wouldn't be sending us so many player surveys. The argument of 'shut up and enjoy your free game' always feels to me like conflating acts of entitlement/demands with just people in a community talking about what they'd like to see.

Objections to your defenses: Defense 1: How do you know that the game is not intended for competitive play? Do you have some kind of internal line at the Mihoyo that can confirm that it's not even a possibility? Often in game development the success or failure of supplementary features informs future development pathways. If the TCG succeeds well enough, it could become a competitive or even standalone game. Defense 2: This defense is inherently incoherent. In the first paragraph you argue that any progression system would be self-defeating, then you introduce another progression system. If players would try to meta-chase for a winrate reward, they will also meta-chase to achieve a number of wins award. The meta for a number of games played reward would also be even more toxic than anything else; the fastest way to get a game played reward is to intentionally sandbag. You play the minimum required for a match to count for the stat and then you lose, forfeit, or DC. Any reward system is going to have a meta. (You can see this in practice in some kinds of all-achievement speedruns where there's an achievement for playing a minigame a certain number of times,) Defense 3: A two-player competitive game is not fun if it is not actually competitive. Repeatedly queueing up just to be curbstomped in every match is neither competitive nor fun. On the other side, repeatedly queueing into people just to curbstomp is not competitive and is not in itself fun (pros don't smurf to have fun, pros smurf to decompress and relieve the stress of playing at a high level). If the TCG is built to have a significant skill gap or have a significant power gap due to card availability, then random pairing will create curbstomping. The only effective counter is actually design-side to create an intentionally casual game such that a new player (one with no skill and only basic cards) can still win even when matched against a high-level player (one with high skill and every card available).

Yall create every argument to make gameplay less fun for a small amount of people who likes this game for common gamer interest such as competitiveness and grinds or whatever, it baffles me to see why we should have all the variety in the world in this game such as tcg, house building, farming, artifact farming, combat, story, but a small sense of competitive? No, its bad for the game!! How dare you think of something like this, the game should stay soft as it is so it doesnt give anxiety to everyone playing!!

Are you by a chance the person who complained to mihoyo about Abyss giving you "excessive anxiety"?

It’s a competitive card game by definition. Make a ranked mode and a casual mode and call it a day. However realistically this is just a testing ground for what will later be a standalone paid version with actual ranked matches and potentially several game modes. They’re gauging interest right now and fully intend on monetizing if it proves popular. Enjoy it while it’s free, enjoy stomping new players while you can.

Just don’t participate if don’t want to like everything else in the game?

If I don’t enjoy something, then no one should either. I don’t play teapot at all, we should get rid of it and the teapot players should go play animal crossing instead.

Self-selecting something will always be the worst option. In every other games people smurf and instalock dps and you expect them to be fair in their judgement ? Way too optimistic. Simple option is to match people with same player rank, you should have the exact same number of card unlocked. If you are beaten then it's your own fault. Especially since you can't buy card packs with a randomized content. You are some toxic twink/smurf ? Well good for you, enjoy staying at low rank and not getting your primos while other people get everything. If you are trashed by someone with the exact same number of things unlocked, I will quote best dad "Don't be sorry, be better"

Same stupid argument as always. “ı don’t want something so no one should have it”. They can quite simply differ Ranked from normal PVP and THAT IS IT. Now you are not forced into it while people who actually wants to go tryhard a bit can enjoy themselves too but NO. Because how dare people who likes to play competitive get anything, If you won’t use it should not exist at all despite there are people who would want it am I right ? Such a selfish post.

also nothing would stop the playerbase to create some inhouse ranked system (league of legends had a thing like this in NA) so who ever wants that can just work on something

Oh the GITCG subreddit and discord are already doing weeklies with Top 5 being reported. It's already happening. Week 1 was an Ayaka Freeze and Yoimiya + Ayaka OTK meta.

Good for them, if that’s what they enjoy. I’m never going to be a pro TCG player, but it does seem like people get defensive when others enjoy big numbers or things like that. Enjoying the meta? Great. Enjoying being casual and exploring? Great. Mix of both? Also great.

Holy crap! Seriously? For me, it just a side thing to relax, but I'm glad that they made this on their own. I was a hearthstone player for ranked and i don't want anything close to that on GI, but if the people can organize themselves for tournament it is great.

I see no downsides to having a casual queue button and a ranked queue button separate from each other. Why are casual players so adamant about making sure the more serious side of the player base never receives what they want? I'm genuinely curious.

I sometimes don't get what's the problem with this community. Like what's the problem if someone plays a meta deck to get more wins? Gonna Cry? Make a reddit post? And actually if tcg had ranked gameplay you'd never see tryhard metaslaves anyway as they'd be high up in the rankings and you can chillax with whatever you wanna play.

How come because you don't want it, then nobody gets to have it?

Normal genshin behavior someone wants endgame battling and they attack you for wanting something in game you like,they act like devs can hear us 💀

That's just Genshin players in a nutshell. You can probably apply that to many other things in the game.

spiral abyss 💀

This is the main sub, it's full of company simps and degenerates. I'm someone who takes TCG casually and it sucks when I play against a tryhard and get smashed, it would actually be nice if they added a hidden MMR system cause it would actually benefit casuals, but I guess OP thinks otherwise.

And no record of matches played or win/loss. People won't want to play good players if their % of wins is going to drop.

I just don’t wanna go against players who clearly don’t know what they are doing.

Why not just make genshin a visual novel at this point.

Hoyo won't put a rank system in because that would require actual work. The main purpose of a ranking system is to facilitate a way for players to play other players of similar skill level, and keep the game enjoyable. Without a rank system, this will just be another mini game that gets forgotten by the time the next patch comes out.

I'm also opposed to it.. I think a replay feature would be a nice addition instead, where we can spectate the enemy side on the replay.

While I'm fine with matchmaking on its own, I *do* wish there was some incentive to play for a bit. I was thinking something like Abyss where a bunch of (non primogem) rewards are awarded for each win you get within the half month. i.e. First win gives like 12k mora, second win gives 2 purple EXP books, and so on, and it doesn't reset upon a loss. This would give something to those who enjoy playing in the first place while those who don't want to still don't need to since the rewards aren't really meant to be full on rewards, just a tiny little bonus

There's appeal to both sides. You can't simply write off competitive play just because the game is casual. It could then be argued there could be casual PVP. But yes, mihoyo is not gonna change their formulas now. They're gonna keep things casual-solo based. I'm fine either way. But I do hope they keep adding to the TCG. New cards. New ideas. Just don't leave it stagnant.

How did ppl get workup over something that doesn’t affect them? Truly amazing.

While you make alot of counter arguments they depend alot on the fact competitive = toxicity while ignoring the fact that it is very easy to ignore toxic people especially when it's bound to a specific minor part if the game. I also have issue with the initial notion that competitive will create a significant amount of toxicity when in reality toxic people will always be toxic.

Fair, but I want something to show off my skills

From my experience of a human being who plays TCG a lot: 1) Making a "self-select" matchmaking without banning people who put a meta decks and play "casual" will lead to this problem. There should be no ranking at all. 2) "Number of wins" will lead to the same issue, people will play only competitive decks for a sake of time saving. People should not be incentivized to play competitive decks in queue by any means, they will stil play them cause winning by itself feels pleasant but we shoudn't whip them in that direction. 3) Yes, it's not. You can play it competitively, or on kitchen with friends. But you don't have to switch to other game. Devs left enough tools to make championships among those who will like to participate in them.

Of course it makes sense for a TCG to have a ladder or matchmaking with ranks. I never understood why this community is so afraid of having PvP of some sorts in this game, is it because you're so afraid to suck and be placed on a shit rank? Even if PvP didn't give any reward people would still cry about it, hear me out what if you just don't play the PvP? Also having people choosing their "rank" like OP described is incredible wrong and would lead to good players choosing the lowest rank just to shit on people a.k.a smurfing.

I think your argument against minimal/no reward ranked is pretty bad. Where would the toxicity exist? There’s no in game chat during the game, so what, Reddit? Fun fact, it’s already got a fair amount of toxicity. You say that “meta-chasing” is an issue but you do realize that, once people have more cards and more time, a meta will naturally develop even without ranks. That’s just how games work. You literally understand this, because you mentioned abyss meta, which abyss also doesn’t have ranked. I do agree that some rewards for games played/games won would be nice.

OP's argument of "**meta**" and "**two-player**" competitiveness applies to all TCG games indifferently. However if e.g. Hearthstone was released with only a **self-select** mode without ranked, I daresay not many people would play it for long.

Genshin fan base and getting mad at itself for wanting features at this point is honestly just our community now

I’m getting really tired of this “Genshin was made for casuals” bs. Like no, it’s a game meant for everyone and not everyone wants to play a 100% casual game catered towards people who can’t handle any competitiveness whatsoever.

Game meant for casuals yet the amount of readig you do just to understand the lore rivals that of a college course 😅

Your "defense" Statements are so Bad i dont even care to answer Everyone if them, but even your thoughts about a Ranking System that gets inflated because of changing Decks Shows me, that you never played a tcg in a competetive way. Also they should just Release GI tcg as a separate game like hearthstone for example and if you dont like competiton then go play non ranked games or vs KI. Dont even understand why this is a topic to discuss

Also, imagine not wanting a competitive ladder on a competitive 1v1 card game.....like wtf? It doesnt get any more PVP than this for genshin. This card game is perfect for ranked because its pure skill + believing in the hearth of the cards for winning AND 0 whaling for extra cards.

Or, how about they implement it, and casuals like you can just not touch it?

Asmongold said the same thing about competitive games, I agree with him. I do understand players want a ranked system but if you wanted a real competitive game, there is another game. Kind of the same as people that want WoW to be an esport. Players can set up their own API systems to give their own community based ranking, same as enki.moe artifacts ranking among players. Surely, someone out there can set it up. Hoyoverse set their game philosophy for Genshin to be forever casual and the occasional try hard event like the Hypostasis one. Not seeing them change it real soon cause it working very well and making bank.

But the TCG is a competitive mode. With a rank system, a player on either extremity (very inexperienced/weak, and very experienced/strong) is going to have a lot less balanced time with the game and it’s gonna be a lot less fun. A rank system is great for good matchmaking. It is *most* beneficial for the the most casual players.

Its fine to have a rank system as long as their is no rewards tied to it, except maybe card back cosmetics or something? A TCG game is inherently a pvp game, unlike the rest of gneshin.

a ranked system is the best way for the card game to evolve a meta, have innovation, and actually give you challenging matches that will let you as a player learn and improve. Playing a random unranked ladder vs newbs is so pointless, because you can hardly learn anything about what makes a deck good or good gameplay. Might as well play vs AI then, it's the same experience. And what is the point of a card game if not to practice strategy/deckbuilding and improve? Without a MMR system that is not possible.

Yes, one thing i like in hearthstone(tcg) is that it have adventure mode that let player fight AI that have unique card/mechanic, i hope that genshin will implement feature like that(similar to oceanid fight but more mechanic and roguelike system)

1. Ranks not existing would mean GI TCG leaning into a more physical TCG environment which is neat. It allows building of tight communities like more traditional board games. 2. Tourneys would be awesome without the need for ranks. Community hosted or official. Official tourneys could reward exclusive profile banners and coins for participating. 3. I’m not sure if it’s a thing but cross server/region matchmaking would be really wanted if any bigger tournaments were to be hosted.

What if I just want to see how I stack up against the community? I play AOE2. I have a 1v1 normal map Elo of about 1200 which, considering I pick OP civs, means I'm basically average. I don't stress about it. I have zero incentive to tryhard to get better. I don't mind playing against much stronger players in Custom games and the same in reverse for weaker players. It's just a number that says "Yup, your skill level indicates you do some things badly and some things okay" and that's the end of it.

Was gonna type out a really long counter point, but everyone else already said it. I’m just gonna say: you are arguing about a problem that doesn’t exist.

Am I the only one happy with playing against the computer and the chill friends in my list? I'm here for a fun time, not a championship time.

This mode will die soon. Genshin players dont like to play the game. At this point genshin is a 3d model collector.

Objection: I and a lot of other players want it in the game. If it’s a popular idea and a lot people would enjoy it, I don’t why it shouldn’t be implemented. Also if you haven’t noticed this player base is already toxic as hell. I’d argue you are definitely wrong about the toxicity thing. Here’s an example League of legends is pretty toxic but do you know what isn’t? TFT and legends of runeterra, they both have ranked modes but you don’t see anyone spitting slurs. People are toxic to their teammates not so much to their opponents.

I mean I excepted this, once again another mode is ruined by the casuals. You guys just can't let ppl enjoy things can you. I haven't even touch tcg and have no desire to, but you still won't let ppl who try hard have something will you. This stuff breeds more toxicity then actual ranked.